Author Topic: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation  (Read 4348 times)

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2022, 05:34:26 PM »
Just to quickly let everybody know, the next game analysis will be delayed to the next week due to busy schedule on my side. But it will come, do not worry  :(y)

Offline kothmann

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2022, 06:36:57 PM »
Thanks looking forward to it!

Offline SxN

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2022, 02:10:16 PM »
Just discovered this thread and, all I can say is: Thanks DIN0.

+1 merit from me

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2022, 10:15:58 AM »
You are most welcome! Thanks for the merit ;D

Sadly I have been busy lately, so my strategy commentaries are delayed significantly from the initial plan. And it doesn't seem to get any looser in the near months, so I have no idea when I will be able to get to it  :'( That said they will return someday, along with new notation-related content  :yellow-meeple: :orange-meeple:

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2022, 10:23:37 PM »
I was going to ask if I can get permission to translate the notation system in other languages, then it dawned on me: the system, as it stands now, may come fairly easy to English speakers, but that won't be true for the rest of the world.

As I had in mind the groups that play Carcassonne competitively - they would be a natural beneficiary of a notation system - I think it would be good if it can be made language agnostic. The game itself did manage that

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2022, 06:30:42 AM »
If you are referring to the manual, I would be open to arrange something with you (and potentially others) in the future for the translation to other languages. In fact I am planning one translation myself.
I you mean the system itself, that is in fact already language independent. It is true that certain symbols (letters) are derived from english forms of those terms, but they are only ever used in their short abbreviated forms, so it is just another symbol of the notation. You do not need to know the verbal origin of the symbols to use them, just when and how to use them properly. This is also the case in other notations such as the chess notation - the abbreviations are derived from english, but the system itself is international and language independent. I made my system the same in this regard.

What languages do you have in mind?  :)

Offline SxN

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2022, 03:40:27 PM »
Chess notations comes in many flavours: you can specify Qc4 with the meaning of Queen moves from current position to c4, or Qc2-c4, meaning Queen moves from c2 (which is the current position) to c4. Back in the day, when I was playing chess competitionally in Romania, I was thought to write my same move as Dc4, D standing for the Romanian "Dama". Same principle as in English, but localized.

However, the same move can be easily "internationalized": c2-c4 (with or without dash). In notations that designate what moves, this would be a pawn move, but you can avoid specifying the figure with a language-specific letter by implying "whatever is on c2 moves to c4". No Q, no D, no nothing.

At the end of the day, using the "r" symbol for road, or using the "|" symbol (or any other) is just a matter of convention and agreement. But it does give an "associative advantage" to an Anglophone who can associate "r" with road. For a Czech the word, I believe, is "cest" - no "r" there. For a Romanian (go Marian Curcan, go!), the word is "drum". For a Greek it is "dromos", but spelled in a different alphabet, for a German (these guys invented the game) it is "Weg" - mandatory capital for nouns. I think this illustrates why I use "associative advantage" for English speakers.

My proposal is to use the principles proposed so far, but change a bit the symbols, trying to make them universal.

The other thing is that it would be easier to parse a game by a computer if the field separator is consistently the same.

Please allow me a few days to crystalize this vague comments into a concrete proposal and let's discuss from there.

As for translations... I think this notation can be useful to many globally. It has the potential to become the official way of recording games in championships, which means, in my mind, to make it available to the largest audience possible.

I hope these sound good.

Offline SxN

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2022, 08:55:08 PM »
I'm afraid I was not able to put my thoughts on paper in a concise way, so I ended up generating the attached pdf. Please consider it an invitation to discussion.

Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2022, 07:15:22 AM »
I'd created my own notation system two or three weeks ago before I realised this thread was here - doh!!

As expected, there are many similarities between the two notation systems. If I am correct, @DINO's system requires you to know or look-up the 'standard' orientation of a tile and then notate that tile with its placed orientation.

In contrast, my system requires that the faces be recorded from the perspective of the notator, starting from the left-most face.
 
To cope with different configurations of the features, such as splitter tiles and non-splitter tiles, my system makes two assumptions:
  • city faces are assumed to be joined unless designated to be different, such as 'C' and 'C2'
  • road faces are assumed to be separate unless there are exactly 2 road faces, in which case they are joined. Roads may be forced to be joined by giving them the same designation, such as 'R1R1R1F' being a roundabout junction, or forced separate with different designations such as 'RCR2C' for a city extender with roads either side

In the attached documentation of the notation I have also included a couple of notated games, including the final that won me the UK Championship on Sunday. I have not tried recreating a game from the notation yet, so I expect there will be a few mistakes!

If anyone wants it in Word.doc format I will happily make a link available.

Here is a snippet of that game to give you a flavour of the notation:

05/06/2022, ~15:45 BST, UK Championships Final, Real-time 15 min
A = wallaceprime (Chris Wallace) <yellow> 1st (104)
B = Uhome (Daniel Cheng) <blue> 2nd (103)
 
0 (0,0)   FRCR
1A (0,-1)   FRFRm
2B (1,-1)   FFFFKm
3A (1,0)   CFCmF
4B (2,-1)   FRCmR
5A (0,1)   FCmRR
6B (1-2)   FFFFKm
7A (0,2)   CCFC
8B (3,-1)   CFC2mF +4
9A (3,0)   RRRF
10B (4,1)   CRRC

Never too old to learn new tricks

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2022, 01:59:55 PM »
Quote
If I am correct, @DINO's system requires you to know or look-up the 'standard' orientation of a tile and then notate that tile with its placed orientation.
Actually, you don't need to memorize anything  ;) The "standard" orientation you are referring to, is generated using the consolidated tile reference, which is quite easy to do on the spot.

As to using my notation for Carcassonne beyond the base game, stay tuned for Project 1B - the general notation. Project 2 will come out before then though.

Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2022, 02:14:22 PM »
Thanks for the clarification @DIN0 - I looked forwards to Project 2  :yellow-meeple:

I've just finished recreating a game from my notation and found loads of mistakes! My excuse is that I was notating from a YouTube video and I'm sticking to it!  ;)

However, I've corrected that game - attached - and also added some additional notes with my thoughts about various moves and the tactics involved in that championship final if anyone's interested.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2022, 12:45:06 AM »
Just one suggestion. I like that farmer placement of field obedge with road.
Mark  for farmer is nice abbr. for Fm (field meeole) but I will stay on that standardised form Fm on edge with only field, because people know tiles by its configuration.
This also works fine with base game tiles. When wanted to use on at least Large xpansion Inns and Cathedrals you will stack.
Imagine tile RRRR not from basic game but from I&C two separated roads, or CCCC with 4 small cities and field on the middle.
Actually when we are on basic game.
What about Abbot and Gardens.


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Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2022, 03:48:07 AM »
Thanks for your comments, @Bumsakalaka  :)

The different forms of RRRR are easily accommodated with the road numbering system:

« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 03:51:45 AM by wallaceprime »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2022, 06:07:16 AM »
This is similar to mine suggestion but I used R1r1R2r2 or R1R2r1r2 you used RRR2R2 and RR2RR2 which is quire more readable.
Still issues CCCC tiles with field inside which can be CC2C3C4 and field and garden in C2 inside.
And what about CCCC with Cathedral?


Offline Scott

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2022, 08:49:31 AM »
HiG has unique tile IDs for each tile. Have you guys considered using that instead?


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