Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: kettlefish on October 09, 2014, 01:27:49 AM
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I've got some answers from HiG (Georg Wild) by meeting at the fair in Leipzig 04.10.2014:
Question in BLUE
Answer in GREEN
Still open in RED
My own comments in MAROON
Obervet gave me the questions in August 2014 by email.
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1. A previous clarification stated that you can't move a follower from the cathedral quarter of the City to a German Monastery with an abbot, since it won't finish in the usual time frame.
However, if the German Monastery has a normal monk (i.e. acting as a regular cloister), and it finishes, can you move a follower to it from the City and declare it as an abbot instead?
No, you can’t move a follower from the quarter of the cathedral of the City Carcassonne as an abbot on the German Monastery if it is finished as a normal cloister with a monk on it.
You can only move a follower from the quarter of the cathedral of the City Carcassonne as monk, because only this feature (the German Monastery as a cloister) is finished for scoring.
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2a. If a player draws a Hill as the last tile is he allowed to place it without putting a tile under it?
Yes, a hill tile is allowed to place it as the last tile. The normal turn takes place (move wood and score finished features).
2b. Or, does not having a tile under it bar him from placing the tile?
No, the hill tile can be placed without a tile under it.
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3a. Does a tunnel token get placed during the Move Wood phase or any time during a turn?
A tunnel token get placed during any time at the players turn.
3b. If a road is completed by placing a tunnel token, is this scored immediately or during the normal scoring phase?
The finished road with tunnel tokens is scored during the normal scoring phase.
I've read the German rules and this is what I've solved about the rules. I've got no answer from HiG, because it is still an expansion from Spielbox.
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I have some more...
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2a. If a player draws a Hill as the last tile is he allowed to place it without putting a tile under it?
Yes, a hill tile is allowed to place it as the last tile. The normal turn takes place (move wood and score finished features).
2b. Or, does not having a tile under it bar him from placing the tile?
No, the hill tile can be placed without a tile under it.
Obvious follow-up:
Without the tile under the Hill tile, does the Hill feature still break ties or is it treated as a normal tile? I assume it still works, but that's not clear from his answer.
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2a. If a player draws a Hill as the last tile is he allowed to place it without putting a tile under it?
Yes, a hill tile is allowed to place it as the last tile. The normal turn takes place (move wood and score finished features).
2b. Or, does not having a tile under it bar him from placing the tile?
No, the hill tile can be placed without a tile under it.
Obvious follow-up:
Without the tile under the Hill tile, does the Hill feature still break ties or is it treated as a normal tile? I assume it still works, but that's not clear from his answer.
Yes you can place a follower on the hill tile like a normal tile, but you can't place a follower into a feature which has still followers in it - No tie break is possible.
Example: city - the city has 1 red big follower and 1 blue normal follower - then the hill tile is placed and expanded the city - you can place a follower (1 blue normal follower) on that tile, but not on the city, because there are followers in it. And the tie breaker works only if the follower belongs to that feature (here city).
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Obvious follow-up:
Without the tile under the Hill tile, does the Hill feature still break ties or is it treated as a normal tile? I assume it still works, but that's not clear from his answer.
My first thought was exactly the same. But I can't imagine the situation when tie-breaker is needed, since it is a last tile of the game.
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How about a Follower brought in from the City of Carcassonne at game end? Can't the player choose the tile of the feature, or does it go beside an existing Follower?
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How about a Follower brought in from the City of Carcassonne at game end? Can't the player choose the tile of the feature, or does it go beside an existing Follower?
Hi whaleyland,
a very good question - we didn't talk about this special situation...
Next week I will meet again Georg Wild at Spiel in Essen, there I will ask him this great question... ;D
I am happy to get answers - but each time when I post here the clarification - then new questions came up... I will never finish my work... :P
My suggestion is: Yes in this case it is possible to put the follower from the quarter of the castle (City of Carcassonne) into the finished city.
In my example we have now one big red follower and two blue normal follower in that finished city. One blue normal follower stands on that hill tile (on the city segment) - the tie break works. Blue gets the points of the city and red doesn't get points.
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The next part of the clarification of rules:
please don't wonder because of the numbers - I will answer the "easier" questions first.
Now we have the question #8 and #10
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8. Are the bazaar and wheel of fortune icons resolved even if the tile cannot be placed and must ultimately be discarded?
The bazaar landscape tile:
The bazaar takes place after the tile is drawn and placed. If there is no chance to place the tile according to the normal placement of rules the tile has been discarded. That means the bazaar doesn’t take place.
The bazaar tile doesn’t interrupt the first phase of the turn (to draw and place the landscape tile)
The wheel of fortune landscape tile:
The wheel of fortune tile interrupts the first phase of the turn (to draw and place the landscape tile).
That means the turn interrupts after “to draw” the “wheel of fortune” landscape tile and then the action of the Wheel of Fortune takes place, before the “wheel of fortune” landscape tile is placed. After the actions of the “Wheel of Fortune” the “wheel of fortune” landscape tile has been discarded if there is no regular placement of that tile possible.
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10a. If a player draws a tile that normally could not be played and would have to be discarded, but the tile could be played with use of a bridge, is the player required to use the bridge to play the tile?
No. The player is not required to use the bridge for a placement of the tile.
10b. Or does the player get to choose whether he uses the bridge (and plays the tile) or discards the tile?
Yes, the player has the choice to use the bridge for placement of the tile or just discard the tile.
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2a. If a player draws a Hill as the last tile is he allowed to place it without putting a tile under it?
Yes, a hill tile is allowed to place it as the last tile. The normal turn takes place (move wood and score finished features).
2b. Or, does not having a tile under it bar him from placing the tile?
No, the hill tile can be placed without a tile under it.
Obvious follow-up:
Without the tile under the Hill tile, does the Hill feature still break ties or is it treated as a normal tile? I assume it still works, but that's not clear from his answer.
Yes you can place a follower on the hill tile like a normal tile, but you can't place a follower into a feature which has still followers in it - No tie break is possible.
Example: city - the city has 1 red big follower and 1 blue normal follower - then the hill tile is placed and expanded the city - you can place a follower (1 blue normal follower) on that tile, but not on the city, because there are followers in it. And the tie breaker works only if the follower belongs to that feature (here city).
Player A might place a follower on the hill tile on a city segment without expanding the city and later player B player could place a tile connecting the hill tile city segment to a city in which player C has majority. This is good for player B if player A has least points and player C could go first if C gets the points for the city.
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2a. If a player draws a Hill as the last tile is he allowed to place it without putting a tile under it?
Yes, a hill tile is allowed to place it as the last tile. The normal turn takes place (move wood and score finished features).
2b. Or, does not having a tile under it bar him from placing the tile?
No, the hill tile can be placed without a tile under it.
Obvious follow-up:
Without the tile under the Hill tile, does the Hill feature still break ties or is it treated as a normal tile? I assume it still works, but that's not clear from his answer.
Yes you can place a follower on the hill tile like a normal tile, but you can't place a follower into a feature which has still followers in it - No tie break is possible.
Example: city - the city has 1 red big follower and 1 blue normal follower - then the hill tile is placed and expanded the city - you can place a follower (1 blue normal follower) on that tile, but not on the city, because there are followers in it. And the tie breaker works only if the follower belongs to that feature (here city).
Player A might place a follower on the hill tile on a city segment without expanding the city and later player B player could place a tile connecting the hill tile city segment to a city in which player C has majority. This is good for player B if player A has least points and player C could go first if C gets the points for the city.
Hi Fritz_Spinne,
here was the question if the hill tile is the last tile at the stack for the last turn after that turn there is the end of the game. There is no more drawing a next tile possible that means there is no more later turns in that game (perhaps only a turn with abbey tile).
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Agreed, I only focussed on last turn for myself, but not on the last turn in the game. For the last turn of the game there is no more chance to connect, only for a follower from the City of Carcassonne.
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The next part of the clarification of rules:
please don't wonder because of the numbers - I will answer the "easier" questions first.
Now we have the question #6
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6. (the situation)
In the rules for the Robbers, it is stated that “If a robber is on the same space as several counting followers, and more than one of these followers scores points on the same turn, the owner of the robber can choose which counting follower’s points to gets half of.”
6a. Thus, as stated, if one of the followers receives 1 fairy point at the beginning of the turn, a robber could wait until the very end of the turn to see if another follower on the same space scored a feature. Is this true?
No. The robber can't wait. The scoring of the fairy takes place to an earlier time than the other scorings in that turn - even before a tile is drawn and placed.
6b. Or are the times to check based more on “scoring rounds” which seem to be used for Messages (the robber would have to take the fairy point right away, since no other scoring occurs during that time in the turn)?
Yes, it is more based on "scoring rounds". The robber gets one point (a half round up) like the active player with his fairy-point at the beginning of the active players turn.
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The next part of the clarification of rules:
please don't wonder because of the numbers - I will answer the "easier" questions first.
Now we have the question #9
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9. When the little buildings are scored, the rules state that “points are added during the scoring after all the others.”
9a. Does this mean that the little building points are still considered part of the score for the primary feature, just after other modifications (such as inn/cathedral and mage/witch).
Yes, this is correct.
9b. Or does this mean that the little building points are completely separate (which has important implications for scoring of Robbers and the Teacher).
No, the building points are added to the primary feature. The building point is not a separate scoring.
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For the last turn of the game there is no more chance to connect, only for a follower from the City of Carcassonne.
I found another way to use this last Hill tile - playing with Plague you can take a flight from the Plague during your last turn, and move your follower from ordinary tile of the city to the Hill tile, winning the tie.
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For the last turn of the game there is no more chance to connect, only for a follower from the City of Carcassonne.
I found another way to use this last Hill tile - playing with Plague you can take a flight from the Plague during your last turn, and move your follower from ordinary tile of the city to the Hill tile, winning the tie.
Yes, this is a good one MrNumbers. Funny how many different scenarios are created in this game.
Intuition would say that a Hill with no tile underneath does not have the same "power" as a Hill with a tile underneath (or else what is the point?). But who can guess what HiG will say :)
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The next part of the clarification of rules:
please don't wonder because of the numbers - I will answer the "easier" questions first.
Now we have the question #4
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4. The rules for the Messages refer to “scoring rounds,” as all features scored in one “scoring round” are counted together, and only at the end of a “scoring round” is it determined if a follower is on a dark space.
4a. How many scoring rounds are there in a turn?
If you play the "Messages" only with the base game - than you have only one scoring round. If you play the "Messages" with base game and some expansions - you can have many different scoring rounds...
4b. Based on other clarifications, it seems that there may be scoring rounds for the fairy, the wheel of fortune, the wind roses, shepherds, all normal features together (cities, roads, cloisters), and each individual message tile earned. Is this true?
Yes, it is true.
examples:
at the beginning of the players turn:
- one fairy point
at the first part of the turn - after "to draw the tile, before to place the tile":
- points for the actions of the Wheel of Fortune
at the first part of the turn - after "to draw the tile and after to place the tile:
- 3 points for the wind roses
at the second part of the turn - after "move wood" (place a follower...):
- points for the sheep with the shepherd with the action "Herd the flock into the stable"
at the third part of the turn - during the "score":
- points for finished features - examples: city, road, cloister...
the second part for the double turn of the builder
(see above, but without the fairy-point)
points from the action of a message
4c. Are there others (such as tower ransom)?
Here is no "scoring round". It is a kind of business to pay points to get the follower back.
The same is with the bazaar.
It is also no "scoring round" - It is a kind of business to pay points to get the tile during the bazaar round.
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The next part of the clarification of rules:
Now we have the question #5
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5. When determining scoring of Robbers, there is actually an ambiguity remaining in the rules regarding choice of scoring order.
Footnote 444 (CAR v7.0) comments that the active player chooses order "if a single follower receives points from more than one feature with placement of a single tile," but there is no clarification about who chooses order for multiple followers scoring.
Does the active player always choose scoring order?
Or do players receiving points get to choose the order of the points that they receive?
This question is still open. It is not easy to answer a question when we have only the footnote but not the article from the original rule. I don't have the CAR with me when I go to meet Georg Wild - HiG.
Here is the rule:
• A robber must always take the first allowable points awarded (i.e. other than “rogue
points”). He may not wait for a possible larger score later.
• If a robber is on the same space as several counting followers, and more than one of
these followers scores points on the same turn, the owner of the robber can choose which
counting follower’s points to gets half of. 444
Here is the complete footnote 444:
If a single follower receives points from more than one feature with placement of a single tile,
the active player chooses the order that points are awarded. If there is a robber beside that follower, the owner of the robber would thus receive half the points of only the first feature that is scored. Of course, if multiple followers on the same space receive points, the Robber’s owner can still choose which follower to steal points from. (5/2013)
In all my clarifications of rules - I can't find anything with "the active player chooses the order..."
Obervet, please tell me where you have found this, perhaps there were some misunderstanding.
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The next part of the clarification of rules:
Now we have the last question #7 (total: 10 questions)
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7. If a Robber is on a space with a counting follower that moves backwards (such as from a bazaar payment or tower ransom), what happens to the Robber?
Does he just move backwards with the follower and stay on the board?
(similar to what happens with robber/rogue points)?
No.
I have to say that I did not understand the question correctly when I've asked Georg Wild last week. I will talk with him next week again.
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Why is it we never ask these questions to the author himself?
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Why is it we never ask these questions to the author himself?
When we are together at an event Klaus-Jürgen Wrede, Udo Schmitz with Carcassonne-on-Tour and I - following happens if someone of the fans ask to Klaus-Jürgen Wrede a rule question: Klaus-Jürgen:"Ah... nice question, please ask the rules specialist kettlefish..." ;D
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I'm trying to wrap my head around how a single follower can score from multiple features simultaneously, but I'm drawing a blank.
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When a CRCR is placed near a cloister it could finish 2 cities, 2 roads and a cloister. That could be 5 chances to score. Has anyone ever seen that occur?
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Just re read your post. I am scratching my head as well now.
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I'm trying to wrap my head around how a single follower can score from multiple features simultaneously, but I'm drawing a blank.
Yeah, that's a bit ambiguous out of context. The "follower" in question is actually the counting follower on the scoreboard. Really he's moving due to multiple simultaneous scores. That's been modified in the CAR.
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The word "follower" there could/should be replaced with "player". Then it reads fine.
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The next part of the clarification of rules:
Now we have the question #5
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5. When determining scoring of Robbers, there is actually an ambiguity remaining in the rules regarding choice of scoring order.
Footnote 444 (CAR v7.0) comments that the active player chooses order "if a single follower receives points from more than one feature with placement of a single tile," but there is no clarification about who chooses order for multiple followers scoring.
Does the active player always choose scoring order?
Or do players receiving points get to choose the order of the points that they receive?
This question is still open. It is not easy to answer a question when we have only the footnote but not the article from the original rule. I don't have the CAR with me when I go to meet Georg Wild - HiG.
Here is the rule:
• A robber must always take the first allowable points awarded (i.e. other than “rogue
points”). He may not wait for a possible larger score later.
• If a robber is on the same space as several counting followers, and more than one of
these followers scores points on the same turn, the owner of the robber can choose which
counting follower’s points to gets half of. 444
Here is the complete footnote 444:
If a single follower receives points from more than one feature with placement of a single tile,
the active player chooses the order that points are awarded. If there is a robber beside that follower, the owner of the robber would thus receive half the points of only the first feature that is scored. Of course, if multiple followers on the same space receive points, the Robber’s owner can still choose which follower to steal points from. (5/2013)
In all my clarifications of rules - I can't find anything with "the active player chooses the order..."
Obervet, please tell me where you have found this, perhaps there were some misunderstanding.
Okay, this one's my fault. The basis for the footnote as I wrote it is the examples from the following thread:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=260.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=260.0)
I even had a post about how the person receiving the points gets to choose the order if multiple scores happen simultaneously. Somehow I turned this into "active player" when writing the footnote. I have now corrected the footnote to the actual intent of the rule.
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The word "follower" there could/should be replaced with "player". Then it reads fine.
Also true. I was trying to keep the flavor of the meeple moving on the scoreboard and the robber clinging to his back, but it didn't quite work out.
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Okay, all of the clarifications in this thread to this point have been incorporated into the upcoming CAR. (I didn't do anything with that moving backwards clarification -- I'll wait until that one gets re-clarified.)