Author Topic: Wind Roses and The River/River II  (Read 7189 times)

Offline rfielder

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Wind Roses and The River/River II
« on: April 07, 2014, 07:15:49 AM »
Is is possible to use both the Wind Roses and The River II (or The River)?

The starting tile for the Wind Roses has a road and a building.  If you place this tile in the centre of the table, where would you put the starting tile for the River II?

I can't find anything about this combination in the CAR 6.4, and can't find any discussion about this combination using the search feature here.

Thanks in advanced!

Linkback: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=686.0
Robert Fielder
Brampton, Ontario, Canada  EST

Offline Fritz_Spinne

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 08:11:27 AM »
I see two possibilities:

Place the wind rose starting tile and place the river II starting tile at the field of it.

Begin with river II and let the next player place the wind rose starting tile whereever he wants.

Offline obervet

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 10:42:05 AM »
There are no official rules for what you should do when you have multiple expansions that have starting tiles. There are quite a few of those expansions (Count of Carcassonne, Wheel of Fortune, both Rivers, the School, Wind Roses), so the number of possible combinations is huge if you want to play with 2, 3, or more of those expansions. Essentially, the only rule is to do what makes sense to you. As Fritz_Spinne notes, you have a couple of options, and the choice is yours.

Offline rfielder

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2014, 10:54:13 AM »
Thanks for the advice so far!

The suggestion to use the field side of the Wind Roses starting tile won't work.  With River II, the second tile splits the river with two 90 degree bends.  That means the next tile would be along the side of the Wind Roses tile that has a building.  Since the change of getting a River II tile that has a building in exactly the right place is slim, it kind of rules out that solution.

One of the ideas behind the Wind Roses is that it splits the table into four quadrants.  That means it should start at or very close to the centre.

The other alternative would be to use the blue Wind Roses tile to start instead.  It has fields on four sides, so it will fit.   Then put the acutal Wind Roses starting tile in with rest of the tiles and use it whenever it appears.

Has anyone here actually used the Wind Roses with either The River or River II?  If so, how did you work it?  I would prefer to work with existing rules or already created solutions, if possible.

Offline obervet

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2014, 11:06:58 AM »
I admit that I haven't used the two together, but what if you start the River with a different tile? For example, you could put the Wind Roses tile down first, then attach one of the river tiles with a road segment to the road segment that's on the Wind Roses tile. Then you can play the fork second, and the spring becomes one of the face-down tiles that can end one branch of the river (just like the lake that ends in a city cap).

Edit: Obviously, I'm referring to River II with the fork, but the same theory could apply with River I.

Offline obervet

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2014, 11:12:57 AM »
Another thought might be to orient the spring perpendicular to the road on the Wind Roses tile, so that the river is flowing "North" or "South" relative to that starting compass rose. Then when you play the fork as the second river tile, it's a couple of tiles away from the Wind Rose start, giving you a little buffer for the rest of the river. The Wind Rose tile might not be quite as central that way, but there's no rule that says it has to be.

Offline Scott

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2014, 11:05:11 AM »
Although the rules for the Wind Roses doesn't explicitly state that the Wind Rose starting tile should be placed at the center of the table, it does say that the Wind Rose starting tile replaces the original starting tile, and the base game rules state that the starting tile goes in the middle of the table, so by extension the Wind Rose starting tile is supposed to go in the middle of the table.

The rules for the River expansions state that the spring tile goes in the middle of the table. The spring tiles from River and River 2 are identical; there is also a spring with road tile in the GQ11 expansion. Either configuration can be placed adjacent to the Wind Rose starting tile; only the eastern direction becomes invalid due to the city. If playing with the River 2 according to the official rules, the fork tile comes next. I think where you're running into trouble is the situation where you've placed the spring such that it flows east towards the city or west towards the road. I would strongly advise orienting the spring tile such that it flows north or south, away from the Wind Rose starting tile. This would place the fork two tiles away from the Wind Rose starting tile, with no danger of conflict.

A few years back we were discussing how to combine the river with the Count expansion. Either the city of Carcassonne could be placed in the center of the table, with the river flowing away from it, or the river could be placed first and the city of Carcassonne placed afterwards in any position that it could fit. The rules for the Count are less definite about the city of Carcassonne being in the center of the table; the city doesn't explicitly replace the starting tile, it merely serves as the starting point for the game and the starting tile is not used. Some people like to throw the original starting tile into the bag with the other tiles.

Also a few years back, I compiled a list of river variants. In one of them, I had the fork tile as the starting tile, so you could build on all three branches simultaneously; this would probably lead to problems if the fork was adjacent to the Wind Rose starting tile. In another variant, the fork tile is put into the bag with the other river tiles and could be drawn at any time; this may enable you to flow the river east past the city or west past the road without conflict. Same effect can be obtained by playing River first, then fork, then River 2, if playing with both river expansions. I personally like to put the fork in the bag to help randomize the river configuration, especially if you play with the same people regularly.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 11:07:23 AM by Scott »

Offline evmillan

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 03:18:43 PM »
Also a few years back, I compiled a list of river variants. In one of them, I had the fork tile as the starting tile, so you could build on all three branches simultaneously; this would probably lead to problems if the fork was adjacent to the Wind Rose starting tile. In another variant, the fork tile is put into the bag with the other river tiles and could be drawn at any time; this may enable you to flow the river east past the city or west past the road without conflict. Same effect can be obtained by playing River first, then fork, then River 2, if playing with both river expansions. I personally like to put the fork in the bag to help randomize the river configuration, especially if you play with the same people regularly.

Scott, could you share the list of river variants?, please

Offline Rosco

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2014, 06:36:56 AM »
Please could someone explain to me the necessity of having the official rules in so much detail?  If I am unsure about something, I simply decide with the group which way we will play it. I have changed several rules I don't like.
Just lay the damn tile!

Offline Paul

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2014, 06:57:09 AM »
Please could someone explain to me the necessity of having the official rules in so much detail?  If I am unsure about something, I simply decide with the group which way we will play it. I have changed several rules I don't like.

There are many game clubs around the world and most of them need the detailed rules for official tournaments. Then there are private parties that would like to play it the proper way.

  I like having the one-and-only guide in one place like CAR 6.4 as well. But like you, when we play at home we also change a few rules. To be honest, I'm not even sure we ever played same game twice without changing something.  :)) We're still trying to find the right pacing and balance.

 :meeple:
World record holder for a single game of Carcassonne using 10 007 tiles!

Offline Rosco

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2014, 07:07:11 AM »
Fair enough!

Offline rfielder

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 06:08:08 AM »
There are many game clubs around the world and most of them need the detailed rules for official tournaments. Then there are private parties that would like to play it the proper way.
I find the sticking as close to the "official" rules as possible kills a lot of arguments.  After all, we are playing to have fun, not to start wars or damage relationships!  Having the rules as the higher authority sidesteps the need to resolve discussions with a lead pipe.....   :)

When the rules are not clear, using house rules works, until a clarification is received.  For example, our struggle to use both the Windrosen and River II.

The fun is not in bending or breaking rules.  The fun is in contributing to a set of rules that work.

Offline coyote

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 06:24:41 PM »
If it helps -
We use the windroses and normal starting tile, with River I and II. We make sure the river starting tile is always placed first. The other two starting tiles (windroses and normal starting) are mixed in with the rest of the river pieces.

So, starting goes like:
- River starting
- Middle river pieces, starting tile, & windroses starting tile
- two end river pieces.

Usually,  in the middle like that, the other other starting pieces can always be played.

Offline Scott

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2014, 10:25:31 PM »
Scott, could you share the list of river variants?, please

I just looked for it in the downloads section, and it's not there. :(

I also looked on my computer, but can't find it there either. >:(

Maybe somebody with more time on their hands can find something on the old forums?

One of the other reasons behind trying to rally everyone around a common set of rules is to prevent what happened to Monopoly from happening to Carcassonne (most people think that landing on Free Parking = jackpot).

Offline rfielder

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Re: Wind Roses and The River/River II
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2014, 06:00:46 AM »
Been experimenting with JCloisterZone, and found that I can turn on both the Wind Roses and River II.  JCloisterZone (jcz) uses both the starting Wind Roses tile and the starting tile from River II, but I really don't like how it works.

We have been using the blue compass rose as the starting tile instead, and putting the "official" Wind Roses starting tile into the bag with the rest of the tiles.  This works, and in some games the 3 point bonus can make a big difference!


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