Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Allograft on March 27, 2021, 06:16:22 PM
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I know that the Inquisition on Wheel of Fortune scores for monks, but not for heretics.
Question, what about Archbishops on German Cathedrals and, by extension, Abbots on gardens? I know that Abbots are C2 and Wheel of Fortune is C1, but I figure that the rules of Archbishops can be extended to Abbots? - :pink-meeple:
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Points are awarded depending on the role of the follower (monk), not depending on the feature he's on.
That's any meeple placed as a monk on an abbey, monastery, Darmstadt church, German monastery, Japanese building, Monastery from the Netherlands and Belgium, including an abbot placed there as a monk.
But an abbot on a garden is not a monk so it isn't counted. And any meeple placed on a shrine, on a German Cathedral, or placed as an abbot on a special monastery are not monks either, so not counted (I'm not sure the debate was closed about meeples placed as abbots on a special monastery though) ???
And that's a terrible mess with ecclesiastical ranks... As Meepledrone once said, in Carcassonne, we may see:
- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed on an abbey
- An abbot meeple placed as a monk on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a heretic role placed on a shrine
- An abbot meeple with an abbot role placed on a garden
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Excellent! Merit awarded! - :pink-meeple:
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Thanks :yellow-meeple:
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If you check this clarification (original text in German, see translation below), it indicates that meeples placed as abbots on a German monastery are still considered monks. This would also apply to other special monasteries such as Dutch & Belgian monasteries or Japanese buildings.
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971)
Here you are the translation into English:
Since the rule for the flier is older, as is known, we did not know that one day a follower could also be placed as an abbot on the monastery (German monastery). So even if in the rule would have said "monk", this would not exclude the "abbot" on the German monastery. Thus, the flier can choose to land as Monk or Abbot on the German Monastery."
Conclusion: if the rule of an older extension speaks only of monk, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery.
The same approach for the Flying Machines should be applied to The Wheel of Fortune. So the Inquisition on the Wheel of Fortune would consider all monks (no matter their position as a monk or as an abbot) and any monastic building but shrines:
* Normal monasteries
* Abbeys
* German monasteries
* Dutch & Belgian monasteries
* Japanese buildings
* Darmstadt churches
So role (monk) is one thing and position (as a monk or as an abbot) is another... (Don't ask me about protected monks also indicated by their position: by lying them down - I asked HiG how to place a protected monk placed as an abbot and the answer was: "you'll have to agree/find a way to do it." :o). But I'm digressing here...
As corintiens13 mentioned, this rules outs meeples on other ecclesiastical features such as gardens, shrines and German cathedrals.
- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed on an abbey
- An abbot meeple placed as a monk on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a heretic role placed on a shrine
- An abbot meeple with an abbot role placed on a garden
Carcassonne tongue twisters are awesome, right? :o
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If you check this clarification (original text in German, see translation below), it indicates that meeples placed as abbots on a German monastery are still considered monks. This would also apply to other special monasteries such as Dutch & Belgian monasteries or Japanese buildings.
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971)
Here you are the translation into English:
Since the rule for the flier is older, as is known, we did not know that one day a follower could also be placed as an abbot on the monastery (German monastery). So even if in the rule would have said "monk", this would not exclude the "abbot" on the German monastery. Thus, the flier can choose to land as Monk or Abbot on the German Monastery."
Conclusion: if the rule of an older extension speaks only of monk, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery.
Yeah... That's why I said the debate about this may still be open...
This interpretation seems really unlogical to me !
Acrobats didn't exist when WoF was released, so why not count acrobats too? ;D
Monk is a role, abbot on a monastery is another. Rule is so simple, 2 points per monk, no ambiguity, why then separate role and position to make a rule strange, difficult to understand...etc?
Heretic was the only possible role other than monk on a feature with cloister mechanic back then. So, by the same interpretation you mentioned, we may conclude:
If the rule of an older expansion speaks only of heretic, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery (so if heretic role isnn't counted, abbot role neither) :yellow-meeple:
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We can ask HiG about this. My feeling is that anything can happen. ;)
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We can, not sure they'll answer though ???
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Gradens yes, but not German Cathedrals. In simpler words Inquisition scores for every meeple named Monk, which excludes Heretics and Archbishops.
- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed on an abbey
- An abbot meeple placed as a monk on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a heretic role placed on a shrine
- An abbot meeple with an abbot role placed on a garden
Yeah that is true, not to mention distinction of Normal Meeple in role of Abbot vs Abbot Meeple in role of Monk (not Abbot) ;D
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Gradens yes, but not German Cathedrals. In simpler words Inquisition scores for every meeple named Monk, which excludes Heretics and Archbishops.
Gardens??? We're not sure about meeples placed as abbots on special monasteries, but abbots on gardens are for sure not counted :o :o :o They're not monks, and they're not on a monastic building! :yellow-meeple:
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I know they are not monastic buildings, but since Abbots are placed there "instead of into a monastic building", is their designation not a monk? If not, then what is it?
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It's an abbot :yellow-meeple:
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But Abbot, in that case, is a meeple type, not a "job". I am asking for the job, which (I believe) should be Monk. A normal meeple (or even Abbot meeple) in an Abbey is also a Monk, not an abbot by "job". Since Garden functions as an Abbot meeple exclusive cloister, the job of the Abbot should be Monk.
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It is a gardener ;D
I don't know how and when it had been clarified, but the fact that it's an abbot placed on a garden with an abbot role. :yellow-meeple:
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Abbot role would imply Abbot scoring and the figure would need to be on its side. But the way it actually functions is that of a Monk :o
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It is a different abbot role ;D
Meepledrone, we need your insight and wisdom here :yellow-meeple:
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Or more like HiG statement/clarification, as I do not believe this has been specified anywhere, so far.
But going by the usual logic, it really must be monk.
The Abbot figure is a specialized meeple for monastic buildings, just like Mayor is a specialized meeple for cities. When they are placed in their respective features, they assume the same roles as any meeple would in that feature - monk in monastic buildings, and knight in cities. The Mayor meeple placed in city is called a knight, not a mayor. Likewise, Abbot meeple placed in monastic building is called a monk, because that is his function/job.
A garden is a feature accesible only to Abbot meeples, and it works analogously to cloisters. Abbot meeples also play the same role as they would in cloister. Therefore Abbot meeples in gardens, are monks.
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The rules do not mention the role of an abbot placed in a garden. So, when designing a role for an abbot in a garden, we might say it is an "abbot" (after the meeple type in order to stress a garden is not a monastery) or a "monk" (after the role it would have if placed on a monastic building) for the sake of completeness, but bearing in mind a garden is not a monastic building. I haven't seen any reference to "gardener" so far.
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I was just kidding when mentioning "gardener" ;D
And so... Counted or not by the WoF's inquisition?
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So far I prefer the "abbot" role because it avoids this kind of issues. I would leave abbots in gardens out for the time being.
This is something HiG should clarify, but we suspect that maybe we may have no reply for a while, if any. Fingers crossed.
Topic added to my list of questions... ;D
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If you check this clarification (original text in German, see translation below), it indicates that meeples placed as abbots on a German monastery are still considered monks. This would also apply to other special monasteries such as Dutch & Belgian monasteries or Japanese buildings.
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971)
Here you are the translation into English:
Since the rule for the flier is older, as is known, we did not know that one day a follower could also be placed as an abbot on the monastery (German monastery). So even if in the rule would have said "monk", this would not exclude the "abbot" on the German monastery. Thus, the flier can choose to land as Monk or Abbot on the German Monastery."
Conclusion: if the rule of an older extension speaks only of monk, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery.
Yeah... That's why I said the debate about this may still be open...
This interpretation seems really unlogical to me !
Acrobats didn't exist when WoF was released, so why not count acrobats too? ;D
Monk is a role, abbot on a monastery is another. Rule is so simple, 2 points per monk, no ambiguity, why then separate role and position to make a rule strange, difficult to understand...etc?
Heretic was the only possible role other than monk on a feature with cloister mechanic back then. So, by the same interpretation you mentioned, we may conclude:
If the rule of an older expansion speaks only of heretic, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery (so if heretic role isnn't counted, abbot role neither) :yellow-meeple:
I agree with corinthiens13 on this one. I believe that this clarification was only meant for the placement of meeples on potential features that could be claimed, for instance by fliers, magic portals, catapult seductions, the arrows of the jubilee editions, etc.
In the beginning of Carcassonne, it seemed a good idea to list all the possible meeple roles that were fitted for a specific new mechanic. But with more and more expansions appearing over the years, this approach turned out to be a bad one. Nowadays it seems much better to list all the meeple roles that are not permitted, e.g. "fliers cannot land on fields".
A meeple as a monk vs a meeple as an abbot are two completely different mechanics. In my humble opinion, they are never related. So, I don't include them when counting monks for the WoF. Furthermore, I sincerely believe that it should not be allowed to move meeples from the "Cathedral district" of the City of Carcassonne to cloisters as an abbot at the end of the game (Yes, I play according to the C1 rules which allow all the meeples not blocked by the Count to be moved to the playing area.)
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Agreed :yellow-meeple:
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I posted a question on Discord about all this yesterday. Let's see if we get a satisfactory reply.