Author Topic: German Monasteries interactions  (Read 35118 times)

Offline asparagus

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2014, 01:56:48 PM »
My dear boys - you all are talking much  - nice....

But where can I find an easy clear question???

Could you ask them which of the three models best fits?

1.) single feature
2.) two features
3.) cloister (with the monastery bit a separate feature but guarded by the cloister)

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2014, 01:58:32 PM »
My dear boys - you all are talking much  - nice....

But where can I find an easy clear question???

Could you ask them which of the three models best fits?

1.) single feature
2.) two features
3.) cloister (with the monastery bit a separate feature but guarded by the cloister)
How often should I give the same answer?

one feature - the follower has the choice to act as a monk or as an abbot.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 03:34:01 PM by kettlefish »

Offline asparagus

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2014, 01:59:47 PM »
My dear boys - you all are talking much  - nice....

But where can I find an easy clear question???

Could you ask them which of the three models best fits?

1.) single feature
2.) two features
3.) cloister (with the monastery bit a separate feature but guarded by the cloister)
How often should I give the same answer?

one feature - the follower has the choice to as a monk or as an abbot.

But some of the detailed answers are inconsistent with model 1. If this is a single feature then the Count rules can be used to place an abbot at the end of the game, but you cannot have a monk and an abbot on a single monastery at the same time.

I really do not know how many times I have to point where the problem is.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:05:58 PM by asparagus »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2014, 02:07:08 PM »
I will check again the rules of the Count.
Does I ever answer the question about the Count in the other replies??

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2014, 02:09:59 PM »
I never said that the German Monastery has two separate features. That is not true.

It is one feature, but with the placement of the follower as monk or as abbot the function for this follower changed into cloister (monk) or German Monastery (abbot). It doesn't matter how an other follower is using the German Monastery.

Okay, overly nested quotes, but I'm going to roll with it. Because of the special rules of the Flier (it can fly to a feature that's already occupied), both of the above situations from whaleyland and asparagus are valid -- each valid follower gets to make the decision for himself/herself. I think the point that kettlefish was trying to make was that the German Monastery is still only a single feature. Thus, if it is already occupied, you cannot move a wagon there, put a phantom there, or send a follower there through a magic portal.
perfect obervet - that is it.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:19:28 PM by kettlefish »

Offline asparagus

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2014, 02:14:13 PM »
I never said that the German Monastery has two separate features. That is not true.

It is one feature, but with the placement of the follower as monk or as abbot the function for this follower changed into cloister (monk) or German Monastery (abbot). It doesn't matter how an other follower is using the German Monastery.

Your quote seemed pretty clear to me. The following scenario is possible:
1.) Player A places a German monastery tile and places an abbot.
2.) Player B places a file next to the German monastery; rolls a 1 and places a monk on the German monastery.
Now the feature holds simultaneously a monk and an abbot.

I don't like this but this is how I read the clarification.

Indeed, but the most strange scenario that this rule allows is:
1.) Player A places a German monastery tile and places an abbot.
2.) Player B places a file next to the German monastery; rolls a 1 and places an abbot on the German monastery.
Now the feature holds simultaneously two abbots.

I don't see anywhere in these rules clarifications where this situation is not possible. If the decision is independent, both players can choose both options, correct?

Okay, overly nested quotes, but I'm going to roll with it. Because of the special rules of the Flier (it can fly to a feature that's already occupied), both of the above situations from whaleyland and asparagus are valid -- each valid follower gets to make the decision for himself/herself. I think the point that kettlefish was trying to make was that the German Monastery is still only a single feature. Thus, if it is already occupied, you cannot move a wagon there, put a phantom there, or send a follower there through a magic portal.
perfect obervet - that is it.

This is like saying a pentagram is really a square and not a pentagram because it has four sides (plus an extra one).

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2014, 02:15:54 PM »
We don't have a pentagram or  a square in the official rule...

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2014, 02:26:03 PM »
One feature, dual natures. Kind of like the Catapult Fairgrounds. They are single features but the player can choose one of four options if they place that tile.

I think we've gotten the issue down to The City being the problem. Can a player use the Cathedral in the City of Carcassonne to place an abbot or a monk in the German Monastery? This gets broken down into two sub-questions:
1) Can a follower from the Cathedral be placed on the feature at all?
2) If so, can the follower be placed as an abbot or can they only be placed as a monk?

Following the dual-nature approach, I think figures should be barred from being placed on the feature at all. Otherwise, I feel they have to be allowed to be placed as either (with a player choosing to place the abbot at the end of the game à la Farmers in the Market.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2014, 02:26:48 PM »

I guess I don't have as much of an issue with the feature's status. I think of it as one feature that has 2 compartments -- when you put a follower there, you choose which compartment you put the follower in, monastery or cloister. Either one counts as occupation of the feature, but there is still provision for these odd peripheral cases.

Since the cloister "compartment" of the feature is active, it seems to me that this would work. (And me using the word "compartment" to describe the situation is going to irritate kettlefish, since she doesn't like when we coin new terms to describe what's going on.  ;D )
Yes, I don't know what you meant here...

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2014, 02:37:55 PM »
Hans im Glück simply doesn't play test most of their expansions together. Something like German Monasteries seems intuitive when played with the base game, but as soon as you begin adding the City, magic portals, fliers, etc., things get quite complicated.
Yes I agree. But how long do they play if they would play test the new expansion with all the nine big expansions and all the dozents of mini expansion?  They test with the base game and some of the expansions but not with all expansions.
 
I think that the feature needs to always been seen as a single feature with two choices on it. If it is occupied, a player cannot place another piece on it unless they would normally be allowed to through a special action such as the flier. If a player is able to place on that feature, then they get to make the choice too.
Yes it is correct.
For the Count, I'd say that the feature does not count as a cloister. Period. A monk can go on it and score it like a cloister, but it is not a cloister, it is a monastery. Cloisters don't give you a choice while monasteries do.
I have to read the rule of the Count - need some time...

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2014, 02:46:08 PM »
Christian H. is another person with his finger on the pulse of Carcassonne rules.

Where is this web page?

https://sites.google.com/site/carcassonnefanseite/

here are the FAQ from Christian H.
https://sites.google.com/site/carcassonnefanseite/regeln-zu-mini-erweiterungen

But the Cult Places have nothing to do with the German Monasteries...

This belongs to the topic:
Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:53:11 PM by kettlefish »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2014, 03:17:35 PM »
This is what I've written in the other topic
Expansion#6 The Count, The King and The Robber

Quote
section: "Cathedral" - the followers in this section are placed on a cloister (follower as a monk).
The "German Monasteries" - only the function as a cloister (follower as a monk) - YES
The "German Monasteries" - the function as a "German Monastery" (follower as a abbot) - NO.
But I can ask HiG if you like.
---------------------------
excursion - German Language... - The flier and the German Monastery

I've called with HiG - Georg Wild...
It is not easy to explain...
First I will write down the German words.

Wir hatten heute über den Flieger gesprochen und dass er auf Gebiete landen darf, die bereits besetzt sind (Stadt, Straße und Kloster).
Ich sagte "Man gut, dass in der Regel nicht steht Mönch (für Gefolgsmann auf dem Kloster), sondern nur Kloster. "
Georg Wild sagte darauf: "Da die Regel für den Flieger älter ist, wußte man bekanntlich nicht, dass eines Tages ein Gefolgsmann auch als Abt auf dem Kloster (Deutsches Kloster) stehen kann. Also auch wenn in der Regel Mönch gestanden hätte, würde das nicht den "Abt" auf dem Deutschen Kloster ausschließen. Somit kann der Flieger wählen ob er als Mönch oder als Abt auf dem Deutschen Kloster landet."

Fazit: Wenn in der Regel einer älteren Erweiterung nur von Mönch gesprochen wird, schließt das nicht den Abt auf dem Deutschen Kloster aus.
------------------------------------
I am tired - tomorrow I will translate this...

But with the Count and the German Monastery... - I am not sure about it...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 03:31:00 PM by kettlefish »

Offline asparagus

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2014, 04:01:45 PM »
Also auch wenn in der Regel Mönch gestanden hätte, würde das nicht den "Abt" auf dem Deutschen Kloster ausschließen.

Seems to me that this logic should apply to the Count if it applies to the Flier.

But the Cult Places have nothing to do with the German Monasteries...
I beg to differ. They are both variants of cloister.

Offline asparagus

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2014, 02:08:58 AM »
As alluded to on other threads, I think the HiG design philosophy is a little different from yours. You're a lumper, as you like to be able to categorize all of the different features as 1 of only a few base types. They are splitters, since they want each type of feature to be a distinct thing.

I've thought about this again I think this comment merges together two different questions.
1.) The game designer should have some sort of idea or visualization as to what is going on with a game. Ideally the game art should make it easy to know what this visualization is. The alternative is a random pile of rules that may or may not fit together coherently.
2.) I happen to prefer a lumper philosophy to a splitter philosophy.

I am not convinced that HiG are splitters and I would like them to be lumpers but that is not the issue.

The issue is that I think the German monasteries came out as a neat rule with no visualization for what is really going on.

Offline Carcking

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Re: German Monasteries interactions
« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2014, 08:00:27 AM »
For me this is fairly straight forward. This is how I would house rule it absent anything official from HiG (and maybe even if there is an official ruling).

Premise: The Monastery feature is a single feature that can be occupied and scored in multiple ways.

Question: can a second follower enter an occupied Monastery:
If it's a Phantom - No, because the feature is already occupied.
If it's a Wagon - No, because the feature is already occupied.
If it's from a Magic Gate - No, because the feature is already occupied.
If it's from the City of Carcassonne - Yes, but only as a Monk (there is no allowance for an Abbot to be deployed from the City).
If it's from a Flier - Yes, but only as a Monk (there is no allowance for an Abbot to be deployed from a Flier).

So far, I don't see a case for a second Abbot entering a Monastery (unless there is already an official ruling on the Flier that opens it up to other features).

I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!


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