Exp. 11 - Ghosts, Castles and Cemeteries

[Meepledrone]

HiG has declared in the Exp. 11 rules that there are no official rules when combining it with other expansions, major or minor. This seems to have created some response from some fans in the comunity, as you can see in the following ongoing discussion on Reddit started by u/threelonmusketeers, a fellow fan and member of the community:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Carcassonne/comments/xdldt0/ghostly_questions/

Here you are his initial list of questions:


Exp. 2 - Traders &  Builders

* Are pigs or builders afraid of ghosts?

Exp. 3 - The Princess & the Dragon

* Are ghosts on the dragon's menu or diet plan?

* Is the dragon afraid of ghosts?

* Can ghosts haunt the fairy?

* Does the fairy provide protection from ghosts?

Exp. 4 - The Tower

* Can ghosts haunt a meeple on a tower?

* Can ghosts haunt a captured meeple?

* Can a guard meeple be placed on a tower?

* Can ghosts be captured by a tower?

Exp. 5 - Abbey & Mayor

* If a wagon moves, do ghosts follow?

Exp. 6 - Count, King & Robber

* Can ghosts haunt meeples in the city of Carcassonne?

Exp. 7 - The Catapult

* Can ghosts be removed by catapult knock out tokens?

* Can a player exchange a regular meeple for a guard meeple via seduction? If so, what happens to any ghosts that were previously assigned to that meeple?

Exp. 8 - Bridges, Castles & Bazaars

* Can ghosts haunt a meeple in a castle?

Exp. 9 - Hills & Sheep

* Are shepherds afraid of ghosts?

* Are sheep afraid of ghosts?

Exp. 10 - Under the Big Top

* Are big top animals afraid of ghosts?

* Can a guard meeple participate in an acrobat pyramid? If so, is the entire pyramid protected from ghosts?

Miscellanous

* Is the phantom afraid of ghosts?

* If a meeple gets trapped by Vodyanoy or Solovei Razboynik, do the ghosts follow?

* Can a meeple trapped by Vodyanoy or Solovei Razboynik be retrieved via the addition of ghosts?

* Can ghosts haunt the Teacher?

* Can ghosts haunt the Wheel of Fortune?

* If a haunted knight escapes a besieged city, are the ghosts returned to the supply?

* How do ghosts affect scoring of the "Cash Out" gift?

* Can ghosts haunt a meeple in a bathhouse?

* Can a regular meeple be swapped for a guard meeple via La Porxada? If so, what happens to any ghosts that were previously assigned to the regular meeple?

* If a meeple flees the plague, do the ghosts follow?

* Can ghosts haunt the Mage or Witch?

* Can ghosts haunt the Gingerbread Man?

 
Any thoughts?

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=6077.0

[Meepledrone]

I also include here my initial thoughts about the Exp. 11 and how it may affect various interactions...

>> We have the following pieces of information:

* Ghosts are assigned to normal meeples (these meeples are haunted by them)

* Each ghost drains 1/3 of the "stamina" of a haunted meeple. When the third ghost is a assigned to a meeple, the meeple is returned to its owner's supply, and the ghosts to the general supply.

* Any ghosts assigned to a meeple removed after scoring are returned to the general supply.

* Guards cannot be haunted


>> Based on this, we can cover many questions we have:

* In practical terms, each meeple has three levels of "stamina". Ghosts are a visual representation of lost levels of stamina, so to speak. Do not consider ghosts as a separate entity in Exp. 11.

* Any meeple type except guards can be haunted. They may be on any feature, normal or special (a tower, the Wheel of Fortune, trapped in a bathhouse, trapped by Solovei Razboynik or Vodyanoy...). Note: Phantoms can be eaten by the dragon, since they are considered flesh and blood; that is, they are meeples in a transparent material to tell them apart from normal meeples, but not real spirits rreturning from the dead.

* A haunted meeple keeps the ghosts haunting it while on the board, even if they move like the wagon, or are deployed to or from the city of Carcassonne, or deployed to Leipzig, or moved to a bathhouse, or fleeing the plague, or exchanged by La Porxada or the Catapult...

* No special figures (builder, pig, shepherd, barn) or neutral figures or token are haunted by ghosts

* The dragon, the fairy, the witch and the mage cannot be haunted; the dragon and the fairy do not interact with ghosts but with the meeples hauted by them. The ghosts are irrelevant to them.

Additionally, as indicated in Exp. 10, only normal meeples can be acrobats, soguard meeples won't be allowed. Even the phantom cannot be an acrobat.

[Bumsakalaka]

I agree. Some of the answers are very simple, following the rules of the specific expansion.

Something that can be debated is City of Carcassonne/City of Leipzig and/or meeple movement.

Which can be a problem.

We know that HiG disables some potential options that can cause problems in later turns of the game.

Here's example 1: We have a loophole that allows us to place an Abbey. But on the adjacent tiles around the gap there are 2 cult places placed. So, according to the clarification, it is not allowed to place an abbey tile because there can only be one monastery with one cult place in a challange. So you don't place meeple on that abbey tile either - why do that? Because you want to complete your city for example - you can't place it, because in the next turns there can be some situations that someone will place a meeple on that abbey tile - a C2 rules wagon or a fier or a carcassonne city.

Example 2: Imagine a situation where you are playing Acrobats and there are 2 red meeples on the bottom row and a yellow one - yours is on top. How do you indicate that a fairy is placed to your meeple if you can't place a fairy next to your meeple because the fairy doesn't levitate? - HiG's solution was that all meeples on the pyramid are protected by a fairy.

So here we go.

I have a meeple with 2 ghosts and I move it to Carcassonne to the cathedral. But there's another meeple with 2 ghosts. There may be more of these meeples in the cathedral. So it is quite impossible to know which ghosts are assigned to which meeple.
I know that it is possible, for example, to place ghosts on the pile and their meeple on top.

As usual, meeeples from CoC and Leipzig are protected by other game mechanics - Dragon, Plague, etc:

When meeples are moved to CoC or Leipzig, those meeples lose their ghosts and ghosts are removed from the board and placed out of play for the next turn.

This can also be for wagon movement, the wagon moves without these ghosts.

Why?

We know that the fairy is assigned to the meeple. This meeple can also be a wagon.

When you complete a feature with a w aagonnd you have a fairy assigned to the w anagond you are the owner of a scoring feature, you get 3 points for the fairy.

Once you have scored points, you may move the wagon to any unfinished feature C1 - connected by a road to the completed feature | C2 - on the 9 tiles around the wagon.

Here, however, the fairies are left at the original event position that the fairy is assigned to the wagon.

So this solution must also be used for ghosts. When you move the wagon after completing the function, ghosts kept on original position like fairy, not assigned to the meeple anymore and are removed from the board.

So further discussion is welcome.

[Bumsakalaka]

Well, traps, Synode Gift, Crop circles can be interesting. But I think it can be similar situation as for Fairy / Acrobats.

I think they know, that those 3 ghosts assigned to meeple is very big problem for interaction with other expansions which allows to have multiple meeples on same positions.

Fairy rules can be solution.

[Meepledrone]

I see your point. Here the decision is what events releases the ghosts from a meeple:
1. Scoring the feature with a meeple, so if the meeple is moved to another feature, its "stamina" level is reset.
2. When the meeple is returned to its owner's supply, so if the meeple is moved, it keeps its current "stamina" level.

You are assuming case #1. I'm assuming case #2 in my post above.

The implications of both cases are obvious...

I also like your point of view although it sounds a bit weird to me that the same meeple resets its "stamina" level each time it changes to a new feature:
* The ghosts behave like a reverse timer until their feature is scored, 1 and 2 subtract points, 3 means the meeple is removed.
* If after scoring, the meeple moves to another feature (even without any scoring), the meeples gets rid of its phantoms. For example:
   - A player has a wagon with 2 ghosts placed on a road.
   - We score the road, the wagon is moved and its ghosts are removed.
   - The wagon gets 1 ghost again.
   - The player completes a road with the wagon connected to Leipzig
   - The wagon is alone and the player sends the wagon to the Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig
   - The player gets no points, the ghost haunting the wagon goes away and the wagon goes to Leipzig

We may also consider the following questions:
A. Are ghosts restricted to meeples placed on scoreable features?
B. Would meeples on non-scoreable special areas be protected from ghosts (Carcassonne, Leipzig, bathhouses, Solovei Razboynik, Vodyanoy...)?

[Scott]

In the case of things like the wagon, I think the ghosts would follow the wagon as it moves.

I'm not so sure about moving meeples to and from the City of Carcassonne. Since the City of Carcassonne is safe from towers and dragons, I think it may also be safe from ghosts.

[Bumsakalaka]

I know that this is a new expansion and some familiar rules and precedents may or may not apply.

So, as I wrote, we have some guidelines that we can use.
Since HiG is using their alibist approach, we can just use our (hopefully with the help of @Meepledrone @kettlefish and others) experience and make these interactions the best we can.

I both like and dislike this "stamina" aproach.

I'm all for protecting meeples in CoC and Leipzig. Those meeples are basically protected throughout the game.

I know there have been some anecdotal clarifications for the Peasant revold, protecting meeples, but that may be contradictory to the Fairy approach.

And maybe @Scott is right, Wagon move with Ghosts.

But the question is still unresolved, where there are multiple meeples on one feature and in one "place"?

Are ghosts assigned to all of them? (For example, two monks at one monastery) and again, I'll go back to the Acrobats. How do you deal with them?

[Scott]

The ghosts are attached to particular meeples according to the rules, but it would be worth asking if multiple meeples can be scared away.


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[NGC 54]

I agree. Some of the answers are very simple, following the rules of the specific expansion.

Something that can be debated is City of Carcassonne/City of Leipzig and/or meeple movement.

Which can be a problem.

We know that HiG disables some potential options that can cause problems in later turns of the game.

Here's example 1: We have a loophole that allows us to place an Abbey. But on the adjacent tiles around the gap there are 2 cult places placed. So, according to the clarification, it is not allowed to place an abbey tile because there can only be one monastery with one cult place in a challange. So you don't place meeple on that abbey tile either - why do that? Because you want to complete your city for example - you can't place it, because in the next turns there can be some situations that someone will place a meeple on that abbey tile - a C2 rules wagon or a fier or a carcassonne city.

Example 2: Imagine a situation where you are playing Acrobats and there are 2 red meeples on the bottom row and a yellow one - yours is on top. How do you indicate that a fairy is placed to your meeple if you can't place a fairy next to your meeple because the fairy doesn't levitate? - HiG's solution was that all meeples on the pyramid are protected by a fairy.

So here we go.

I have a meeple with 2 ghosts and I move it to Carcassonne to the cathedral. But there's another meeple with 2 ghosts. There may be more of these meeples in the cathedral. So it is quite impossible to know which ghosts are assigned to which meeple.
I know that it is possible, for example, to place ghosts on the pile and their meeple on top.

As usual, meeeples from CoC and Leipzig are protected by other game mechanics - Dragon, Plague, etc:

When meeples are moved to CoC or Leipzig, those meeples lose their ghosts and ghosts are removed from the board and placed out of play for the next turn.

This can also be for wagon movement, the wagon moves without these ghosts.

Why?

We know that the fairy is assigned to the meeple. This meeple can also be a wagon.

When you complete a feature with a w aagonnd you have a fairy assigned to the w anagond you are the owner of a scoring feature, you get 3 points for the fairy.

Once you have scored points, you may move the wagon to any unfinished feature C1 - connected by a road to the completed feature | C2 - on the 9 tiles around the wagon.

Here, however, the fairies are left at the original event position that the fairy is assigned to the wagon.

So this solution must also be used for ghosts. When you move the wagon after completing the function, ghosts kept on original position like fairy, not assigned to the meeple anymore and are removed from the board.

So further discussion is welcome.

The fairy is still assigned only to 1 meeple, although the 1 bonus point is scored by all 3 meeples. This is relevant if the acrobat with the fairy is removed, for example by a tower. If the acrobat with the fairy is removed, the other 2 acrobats are no longer subscribed to fairy.

[NGC 54]

The ghosts are attached to particular meeples according to the rules, but it would be worth asking if multiple meeples can be scared away.


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https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2

"You cannot move the dragon or the fairy into the city of Carcassonne." - This should also apply to ghosts.

[Bumsakalaka]

Anyway I don't like ghost placement as phase 2a. As this is relevant to tile placement. Dragon is also placed in phase 1 when placed volcano tile.
But I understand, that maybe this is for original The Mists over Carcassonne cooperative rules.

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[NGC 54]

Does a castle (from Exp. considers the -2 points (or -4 points) caused by ghosts?

[Bumsakalaka]

Does a castle (from Exp. considers the -2 points (or -4 points) caused by ghosts?

Yes

[PapaGeek]

I was able to find an image of the "Work in Progress" box with a couple of the new tiles and ghosts:



Or if you don't mind a smaller image on an HTTP website:



Does anyone know if an image of the full set of new tiles exists anywhere?

Or if there is an image of the proposed new Rules?

[Bumsakalaka]

There is rules directly on Wikicarpedia. For both mists over Carcassonne and also as expansion 11 ghosts, castles and cemeteries.
Images are available here on discord in fresh by linksux and also English on Discord

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