Author Topic: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne  (Read 1477 times)

Offline corinthiens13

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Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« on: January 14, 2021, 08:05:22 AM »
On the order of play, step 3c:
Quote
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.


I had in mind that:
A. This do only consider step 3, not the whole turn, according to the expansion's WICA page:
Quote
Each time you perform a scoring in phase 3. Scoring a feature, [2] if at least one of your opponents gains points and you gain none, [3] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
So it should be "If you did not score any points during step 3 (or only step 3a and 3b if circus is appart too) but one or more opponents did..."

B. Teacher and robber points are not considered to determine if you or another player earned points, if that's still the case, it should be mentioned too.

C. We may move the count only, or place a meeple only, or do both. According to WICA:
Quote
...you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
There is no restriction saying that you may move the count only if you did place a meeple in the city?

Am I correct? If so, I think the phrase should be:
"If you did not score any points during step 3 (or only step 3a and 3b if circus is appart too) but one or more opponents did (without considering robber or teacher points), you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne, then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice."

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2021, 04:30:40 AM »
I've been checking the rules, and I have found the following:

1) The rules in German are almost the same in C1 and C2:
   - In C1 they are written in third person (er = he), whereas they use second person in C2 (du = you)
   - The rules refer to a player triggering one or multiple scorings (due to a tile placement) but getting no points for them
   - The C2 rules mention explicitly that this scoring happens in 3. Scoring a feature

Translation of German C1 Exp.6 rules:
Quote
Each time a player triggers a scoring event in which at least 1 opponent receives points but he does not, that player may place 1 follower from his supply on a neighborhood of his choice at the end of his turn. If the player triggers multiple scores at the same time, he may not receive points in any of these scores to be able to use this option. However, he may place no more than one follower in Carcassonne per turn.

Translation of German C2 Exp.6 rules:
Quote
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Scoring a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.
If you trigger more than one score at the same time, you must not score points in any of these scores to be allowed to use this option. You may place no more than 1 meeple in Carcassonne per turn.

2) The rules in English in the CAR talk about a generic scoring (implying the full turn) and RGG in Big the Box 2 follows the German approach. However, ZMG translated the rules adding their own flavor:

C1 Exp. 6 rules - The rules are summarized stressing that the scoring is due to the completion of a feature:
Quote
At the end of a turn in which a player has placed a tile that completes one or more features and: a) causes one or more of his opponents to score points, and b) scores no points himself, he may place a follower from his supply into one of the 4 areas of the city of Carcassonne. It is not possible to place more than one follower into the city of Carcassonne in a single turn.

C2 Exp.6 rules - The rules omit the reference to 3. Scoring a feature and the explicit requirement that a player may not get points for any feature.
Quote
When you complete a feature during your turn, if at least one of your opponents gains points and you gain none, you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
Even if you complete more than one feature, you can place a maximum of one meeple in the city of Carcassonne per turn.

3) The wording of this action in the Order of Play comes from CAR that follows the C1 lead. An update may be necessary to include the C2 requirements. This would avoid an open interpretation that any scoring event would be considered, although the action is located in 3. Scoring a feature.

Additionally, if you check Footnote #3, you'll see that the rules only considered events triggered by a tile placement, so messages are discarded.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#cite_note-3
Quote
It is clear from the wording that only scoring caused by placement of a tile can trigger placement of a meeple in Carcassonne. Thus, scoring from non-landscape-tile related events (such as from dispatches (Messages, The (Dispatches) or paying a ransom for the tower (The Tower)) would not trigger meeple placement. Interestingly, though, the placement of a barn (Abbey and the Mayor) does trigger the ability to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, only if you do not receive points, but somebody else does.

So the conclusion is that you can only take into consideration points coming from scoring a feature in 3. Scoring a feature, including the associated bonuses to features and figures on them.

Any thoughts?
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2021, 08:42:16 AM »
[...]
So the conclusion is that you can only take into consideration points coming from scoring a feature in 3. Scoring a feature, including the associated bonuses to features and figures on them.

Any thoughts?

This seems correct to me.

Do you also confirm that we may move the count (if the conditions above are fulfilled) even if we chose not to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne?

So, if I did understand correctly, a way to write it in WICA's order of play could be:
You can place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and / or move the count if you completed one or more features, you didn't get any points from any of them during 3. Scoring a feature (considering feature points, associated bonuses to features and figures on them, but not other indirect points like robber, teacher or castle points), but one or more opponents did. The circus is not considered.

What do you think?

Or as a bullet list:
You can place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and / or move the count if:
  • you completed one or more features (the circus isn't considered)
  • You didn't get any points from any of them during 3. Scoring a feature (considering feature points, associated bonuses to features and figures on them, but not other indirect points like robber, teacher or castle points)
  • One or more opponents did



Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2021, 09:16:17 AM »
A) Sending a meeple to Carcassonne

There is more to it than completed features: In order to be able to send a meeple to Carcassone, you cannot receive points for any completed features or for any fields scored due to barns (no matter if it is a barn placement or a field connection).

Please check the clarifications about the interactions with Exp. 5, especially the bullet with the first FAQ boxes:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2



B) Moving the Count

Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
Quote
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
The Order of Play also uses "then" in its wording for the same reason.

The C1 rules use a different wording but confirm the same restriction:
Quote
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2021, 10:02:23 AM »
A) Sending a meeple to Carcassonne

There is more to it than completed features: In order to be able to send a meeple to Carcassone, you cannot receive points for any completed features or for any fields scored due to barns (no matter if it is a barn placement or a field connection).

Please check the clarifications about the interactions with Exp. 5, especially the bullet with the first FAQ boxes:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2

Ok, so it could be:
"You can place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and / or move the count if one or more features have been scored, you didn't get any points from any of them during 3. Scoring a feature (considering feature points, associated bonuses to features and figures on them, but not other indirect points like robber, teacher or castle points), but one or more opponents did. The circus is not considered.

What do you think?


Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
Quote
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.

There's no dependency ?   ???

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2021, 10:29:29 AM »
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D: "whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count"..
The castle is not a bonus. Is a feature. The rules take into consideration the base game, where there points only from features. The barn is considered, so all other scorings from steps 3B (features, robber points, any other bonuses) and 3C (circus) should be considered. It is impossible to consider messages, because they are applied at the end of the round of scoring 3 (in this case); after meeple placement in City of Carcassonne or Count movement. But the ransom for a prisoner should not be considered; it can take place only once in any step during your turn.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2021, 10:51:15 AM »
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D: "whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count"..
The castle is not a bonus. Is a feature. The rules take into consideration the base game, where there points only from features. The barn is considered, so all other scorings from steps 3B (features, robber points, any other bonuses) and 3C (circus) should be considered. It is impossible to consider messages, because they are applied at the end of the round of scoring 3 (in this case); after meeple placement in City of Carcassonne or Count movement. But the ransom for a prisoner should not be considered; it can take place only once in any step during your turn.

For sure any feature should be considered.

Circus: As it isn't a claimable feature, I wasn't sure  ???
Castle: They are a feature and are of course taken into consideration. I added the castle to the "not considered" list by thinking about a situation that, in fact, cannot happen as per the order of play. So there's no open question about castles.

But only feature points and bonuses should be considered, as we mean "points from a feature". This exclude robber and teacher, as well as bookbinder's quarter, that are not direct point from a feature.

If we considered those points, the bookbinder quarter would bring very odd situations:
Blue has a meeple on that quarter, red not:
  • Blue wouldn't be able to move a meeple to the city after any monastery completition, no matter what, as he'd always get points from the bookbinder quarter
  • For any monastery red completes during his turn, if he do not get points for it, he'd always have the possibility to move a meeple to the city, as blue would always get points for closed monasteries
This would be awesome  >:D but makes no sense  :o
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 01:04:31 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2021, 05:19:40 PM »
You would have the same issue with the Coiners quarter bonus: Suppose you complete a city with coats of arms where don't have the majority. You would not score for the city but for the Coiners quarter bonus if you have a meeple in that quarter.

In any case, it would be similar to scoring no points for a completed feature you occupy without the majority but getting the 3 points for the fairy next to one of your meeples. Nice, huh?

The issue with The Markets of Leipzig is that the bonus is recurring... And you would have to ponder if the bonus outweighs being able to send meeples to Carcassonne from cities and/or monasteries during the rest of your game.

If those cases where you get bonus points for a feature you don't score were to be ruled out, then you should also discard the fairy, watchtowers, tollhouses, Darmstadt church bonus... And so far, we haven't heard any clarification about ruling out the fairy so far.

In any case, for the sake of simplicity, I would consider all the scorings happening in 3. Scoring a feature without considering Messages. They are all related directly or indirectly to the placement of a tile.

Let's see if we can get any clarification from HiG eventually about any exceptions.

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2021, 05:23:20 PM »
without considering Messages
And without considering the ransom for a prisoner.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2021, 06:15:10 PM »
without considering Messages
And without considering the ransom for a prisoner.

Correct!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2021, 11:17:34 PM »
Ok, so we take every points from 3. scoring a feature into consideration (except prisoner ransom and messages, as they're not specifically part of the scoring a feature section). This means robbers and teacher are also considered, despite what the CAR stated.

Anyway, in the order of play:
Quote
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.
A mention that we're considering only points from 3. Scoring a feature is missing  ;)


Personally, as long as HiG doesn't give a clarification, I'll still consider only the feature points (house rule or not), this seems more consistent to me, easy to understand, and doesn't break the gameplay when combined with the markets of Leipzig.


Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
Quote
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.

There's no dependency ?   ???

And what do you think about this?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2021, 03:38:51 AM »
Ok, so we take every points from 3. scoring a feature into consideration (except prisoner ransom and messages, as they're not specifically part of the scoring a feature section). This means robbers and teacher are also considered, despite what the CAR stated.

Anyway, in the order of play:
Quote
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.
A mention that we're considering only points from 3. Scoring a feature is missing  ;)


Personally, as long as HiG doesn't give a clarification, I'll still consider only the feature points (house rule or not), this seems more consistent to me, easy to understand, and doesn't break the gameplay when combined with the markets of Leipzig.

In the worst case scenario, a clarification about the fairy or the ringmaster may help narrow down the issue.

In any case, the restriction about 3. Scoring a feature should be added to the Order of Play.

Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
Quote
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.

There's no dependency ?   ???

And what do you think about this?

In this case, the "if you did the placement" clause was added to the Order of Play after a discussion with Carcassonne93, who felt that use of "then" wasn't stressing enough the requirement whereby the Count can only be moved if you place a meeple in Carcassonne.

So, the same wording change could be applied to the C2 Exp. 6 rules to remove the ambiguous interpretation.

Any objections?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 03:40:33 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2021, 01:51:47 PM »
Ok, so we take every points from 3. scoring a feature into consideration (except prisoner ransom and messages, as they're not specifically part of the scoring a feature section). This means robbers and teacher are also considered, despite what the CAR stated.

Anyway, in the order of play:
Quote
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.
A mention that we're considering only points from 3. Scoring a feature is missing  ;)


Personally, as long as HiG doesn't give a clarification, I'll still consider only the feature points (house rule or not), this seems more consistent to me, easy to understand, and doesn't break the gameplay when combined with the markets of Leipzig.

In the worst case scenario, a clarification about the fairy or the ringmaster may help narrow down the issue.

In any case, the restriction about 3. Scoring a feature should be added to the Order of Play.

Perfect, agreed  ;)

Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
Quote
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.

There's no dependency ?   ???

And what do you think about this?

In this case, the "if you did the placement" clause was added to the Order of Play after a discussion with Carcassonne93, who felt that use of "then" wasn't stressing enough the requirement whereby the Count can only be moved if you place a meeple in Carcassonne.

So, the same wording change could be applied to the C2 Exp. 6 rules to remove the ambiguous interpretation.

Any objections?

Objection !  ;)

As stated before, I don't see how we arrive to unterstand the rules as a dependency. I think the count may be moved (unless playing with one of the two official variants) even if a player chosed not to place a meeple in the city:

Quote
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.

If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o , but that's not stipulated in the official rules.

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count. So you can do it even if you didn't place a meeple in the city?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2021, 02:14:04 PM »
Well, The sentence is at the end of a paragraph starting with the conditions to move a meeple to Carcassonne:

German wording:
Quote
Jedes Mal, wenn du bei 3. Eine Wertung auslösen selbst eine Wertung auslöst, bei der mindestens ein Mitspieler Punkte erhält, du selbst jedoch keine, darfst du am Zugende 1 Meeple aus deinem Vorrat auf ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen. Zusätzlich darfst du den Grafen in ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen.

English translation:
Quote
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.

So, the actions are to be linked, right?

Note: This is a deja vu of the Markets of Leipzig re: the conditions to get the Wainwright quarter bonus when sending a meeple to Leipzig (only from a road with more than one meeple) ;)

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2021, 02:21:51 PM »
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o , but that's not stipulated in the official rules.

The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.

So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count. So you can do it even if you didn't place a meeple in the city?

See https://www.brettspiele-report.de/images/carcassonne/der_graf_von_carcassonne/Spielanleitung_Carcassonne_Der%20Graf%20von%20Carcassonne.pdf, https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber_(1st_edition)/de#Wertung_2 ("Der Graf") and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber_(1st_edition)#Scoring_2 ("The Count").


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Last post May 19, 2015, 02:27:28 PM
by mike_bike_kite