Author Topic: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation  (Read 4348 times)

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2022, 09:05:53 AM »
HiG has unique tile IDs for each tile. Have you guys considered using that instead?
In that case, you can make own list with IDs
1 = FFFF with monastery
2 = FFFR with monastery
etc.
But maybe this will solve this et least for official expansions
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Offline kothmann

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2022, 10:24:25 AM »
See @DIN0’s earlier post about the system design:
The order in which the details about the game are ordered in the notation are a logical, esthetic and practical compromise between the many ways one can record notation. There are several different approaches and each has slightly different preferable order:
real-time participant ([someone is simultaneously] playing and recording)
real-time observer (the person writing is not playing)
writing notation off of video recording of past game (this is not real-time, but instead transcription of visually recorded game into a text form)
writing off of BGA replay, or similar feature (also not real-time, uses replay features of digital versions of Carcassonne)

The player count can also affect these things as seen in the recent post.

A simple tile-index system is obviously better for a computer, but not at all practical for a real-time human logging system.  I also considered recording without a separate orientation field, always just writing down the edges in order as placed on the landscape, like @wallaceprime, but after a bit of practice, I definitely preferred @DIN0’s convention.  It really is quite simple to learn the tile names, as well.

I’ve invented my own additions to handle some expansions, but I tried to stay close to the intention of @DIN0’s base game protocol and I will adopt whatever system @DIN0 eventually publishes for this (Project1B).  There is a lot of value to a common standard, so I think we should all try to adopt @DIN0’s convention unless we have a really compelling reason for alternatives.

Offline Scott

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2022, 10:59:36 AM »
HiG has unique tile IDs for each tile. Have you guys considered using that instead?
In that case, you can make own list with IDs
1 = FFFF with monastery
2 = FFFR with monastery
etc.
But maybe this will solve this et least for official expansions

It makes more sense to me use an existing standard rather than defining a new one.

Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2022, 12:09:22 PM »
Regarding unique ID's for each tile, I think this is perfectly fine for digital storage, such as BGA's tile_36 being the starter tile, but I don't think it works so well for manual notating where I feel that a system that doesn't require looking-up a tile works more easily. [edit: sorry, I've just seen this was addressed in a previous post]
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 12:13:46 PM by wallaceprime »
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Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2022, 12:32:42 PM »
Considering the inherent complexity of the task, I think that different approaches suit different mindsets. However, as long as any notation systems are fully documented, then it should be relatively simple (I think) to write a conversion utility to swap between systems. This would allow people to notate in whichever system they feel most comfortable with, but then share them in the format(s) that anyone would be familiar with.

Out of interest, which of the following are people intending to do?
  • notate their games manually for personal reference
  • notate their games directly onto a computer for personal reference
  • convert their manual notation into a digital format (text, Word, Excel etc) for personal reference
  • share an image of their manual notation sheet
  • share their digital notation

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2022, 12:50:12 PM »
Just to quickly add my own input, as @kothmann and @wallaceprime had said, the ID system is not ideal for human use, especially real-time.
When I was developing my notation system, I ran through numerous iterations of different solutions and/or permutations of individual notation elements. The aim was to make something ergonomic for human player, yet comprehensible for a computer, should someone try to develop digital tools utilizing the system (which did actually happen already).

After much deliberation, I ended up using the current system as a compromise between multiple specialized intended uses. Inevitably, there will be situations when a slightly different variant would be more optimal, but the current version is close enough to all of them. The trade off in these small optimizations is having a single global standardized notation system, which anyone can use and is supported by external tools, sheets etc.
I tackled all of this while keeping it as simple and readable as possible.

Of course this was (and still is) even more of a challenge in Project 1B. This one has to account for exponentially more information, while introducing as little complexity as possible.
I am preparing to release a short version of Project 1B, possibly in late summer - it will not be as comprehensive as the full thing but at the very least it will contain the full version of the extended tile reference. So the project release order at the moment is as follows:
Project 1B short version,
Project 2,
Project 1B full version.


I will not go into detail here but the extended tile reference is already complete and robust enough to cover all the existing tiles and even many potential new configurations. The symbology extensions are designed to be easily readable, logical, intuitive and low complexity.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 12:52:34 PM by DIN0 »

Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2022, 12:53:41 PM »
This is similar to mine suggestion but I used R1r1R2r2 or R1R2r1r2 you used RRR2R2 and RR2RR2 which is quire more readable.
Still issues CCCC tiles with field inside which can be CC2C3C4 and field and garden in C2 inside.
And what about CCCC with Cathedral?

If the field existing between the four cities is too cryptic/hidden, perhaps this could be made explicit with a field suffix: CC2C3C4Fh (F for field, h for herbs) or CC2C3C4F<gdn> or  CC2C3C4F<garden>.

In the same way that a cloister surrounded by 4 field faces is, in my version, FFFFK (with K being the cloister), perhaps CCCCK would be a memorable/logical cathedral, and KKKK an abbey. In this way, the K essentially represents any ecclesiastical building, its precise meaning relying on its context.

Offline Scott

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2022, 01:01:21 PM »
Out of interest, which of the following are people intending to do?

I have no personal interest in a notation system; I’m just thinking along with you guys. The unique tile IDs would definitely be more cumbersome for humans, but if you had a need for precise tile info I think it would be necessary. I think the feature-based notation that we’re all familiar with could serve as a filtering mechanism for tile IDs should someone have an interest in precise information. For example, entering CCCC into the filtering mechanism would display the tiles and corresponding IDs for all CCCC tiles.


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Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2022, 01:14:24 PM »
Fear not, the extensions I came up with enable to identify specific cccc tiles without the use of IDs  ;)

Offline kothmann

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2022, 03:45:38 PM »
Out of interest, which of the following are people intending to do?
  • notate their games manually for personal reference
  • notate their games directly onto a computer for personal reference
  • convert their manual notation into a digital format (text, Word, Excel etc) for personal reference
  • share an image of their manual notation sheet
  • share their digital notation
I’m interested in all of these, but mostly would like a pencil-and-paper system that won’t slow play and can be easily shared.  I implemented @DIN0’s system in a Google Sheet (details earlier post in this thread) that can be used in real time, but I do still prefer paper.

A system that I think would be very fast and easy would be to log only the coordinates of each tile, and the type and location of each meeple deployed, and then use software with a photo of the landscape, after final scoring, to complete the tile type and orientation.  I would love to try this, but my python skills aren’t up to it…yet.

So the project release order at the moment is as follows:
Project 1B short version,
Project 2,
Project 1B full version.

We’re eager to see them!

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2022, 05:22:08 PM »
Quote
I would love to try this, but my python skills aren’t up to it…yet.
I hope that's foreshadowing  :D

I also felt the need to mention carlium's app, since the discussion is currently touching this. It can also be found in earlier posts of this topic, just like kothmann's sheets.

Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2022, 12:49:11 AM »
So the project release order at the moment is as follows:
Project 1B short version,
Project 2,
Project 1B full version.

We’re eager to see them!

Oh yes - very eager!  :yellow-meeple:

Offline wallaceprime

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2022, 01:00:03 AM »
A system that I think would be very fast and easy would be to log only the coordinates of each tile, and the type and location of each meeple deployed, and then use software with a photo of the landscape, after final scoring, to complete the tile type and orientation.  I would love to try this, but my python skills aren’t up to it…yet.

Gosh, I imagine that would be incredibly difficult! I've had enough difficulties in C++ identifying tiles and meeples from screenshots of BGA games when everything is geometrically straight, let alone from real, imperfectly aligned games! One of my biggest aims has been to capture replayed games from BGA to build up a database of past games to analyse and hopefully data mine little gems of information, such as when is the most profitable time to start a farm.

Unless my web-scraping skills aren't up to it (a distinct possibility), I don't think BGA records meeples once they have been removed and scored so, unless you grab the information at precisely the right moment, you miss recording that aspect. Consequently, I have put my efforts into trying to get the computer to assess tile and meeple positions quickly enough from screen captures to map in real time what is happening. I got a fair way into this task, but the program was getting rather messy, so I am in the middle of a full rewrite. I've called my software WallyCarc  :)

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2022, 02:39:14 AM »
Quote
when everything is geometrically straight, let alone from real, imperfectly aligned games!
So that's why you have been making all those magnetic tiles!  :D

Quote
a database of past games to analyse and hopefully data mine little gems of information
A data mining tool would certainly be useful. One of the reasons I started the notation in the first place was to enable people to study their games as well as games of others and possibly make some statistics.

Offline kothmann

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2022, 05:08:12 AM »
identifying tiles and meeples from screenshots
I think a “clean” landscape would be much easier for image processing.  Are you using openCV?  Some other library?

Quote
unless you grab the information at precisely the right moment, you miss recording that aspect.
I had the thought yesterday that it would be fun to develop an AI that used only the final landscape plus the final score to generate a “most likely” game log.  I think if you had the tile position sequence, this could be possible (that is, infer the meeple placement from final score).  Not for me, but possible in the abstract.   >:D

Quote
…so I am in the middle of a full rewrite. I've called my software WallyCarc  :)
We’ll be super eager to see this, too!


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