Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Decar on April 21, 2016, 10:51:29 AM
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We confirmed today how Barns and German Castles interact (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29585#msg29585), but I have some questions about farming, halflings and barns:
1) How many Farms in this picture:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm3.png)
2)How many Farms are in this picture - and which ones can the Barn score?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm4.png)
Now without German Castles:
3) How many Farms are in this picture:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm1.png)
4) Can a Barn be placed here and if so - how many Farms are there and which ones can the Barn Score?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm2.png)
5)I would like to confirm if these Farms are or are not connected:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm5.png)
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/FarmContinuity_2.png)
6a) Can a Barn be placed here?:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm15.png)
6b)How many Farms are in this picture, and can a Barn be placed here - if So which farms can be scored?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm10.png)
6c) Does the Halfling connect the small farm between the two cities, like a full-size tile would?
7)Variation of the above:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm9.png)
8)Variation on the above:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm6.png)
UPDATE:
For completeness I think the following should be covered too:
9) Variation of the above:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm11.png)
10) Variation on the above:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm12.png)
11) Variation on the above: How many farms can be scored this time if the barn can be placed?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm13.png)
12) A question from JTAtomico - Having placed a barn is it acceptable to place the follow tile?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm14.png)
and if so what about now?:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm16.png)
UPDATE:
13) Can a Barn be placed on 4 halflings, if so How many farms are there, and how are they scored?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm17.png)
14) Through clever play it may be possible to join two Barns into the same farm. How many Farms are on this diagram? How do the barns score now? Are all the farms shared, or is one farm partially shared?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfFarm18.png)
Now some clarifications on Cloisters and Halflings:
1) Is this cloister complete? If so how many Points does it score; if not how many does it score at the end of the game?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/HalfCloister1.png)
Questions about Flyers, German Castles and Haflings
1) Can Flyers fly over empty tiles?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/NullSpace_1.png)
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_6.png)
2) If so, how big is the empty-space on this diagram (a German Castle is one-tile and it can fit)?:
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/GC_nullspace_1tile_problem.png)
3)How Do Flyers interact with Halflings. Which diagrams are correct?
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Continuity_1.png)
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Continuity2.png)
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyers_Diagonal_1.png)
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_4.png)
(http://www.tehill.net/carcassonne/general/Flyer_Diagonal_5.png)
Many Thanks in advance.
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Oh wow, this is such a mess! It looks obvious that a halfling should split a field, since there is just air there, but then a barn has to be placed on exactly one field for it to make any sense. This is crazy...
Also, what about this situation:
(http://s31.postimg.cc/vjaddhuij/IMG_0005.jpg)
If I understand correctly, that barn placement is legal at the moment. However if you are allowed to play those two halflings (which you should be able to, tile placement has never before been restricted by figures) then the barn becomes illegal!
I will be playing the house rule that the barn has to sit entirely on grass (which could be two halflings meeting or one halfling with the long edge away from the barn). As with the squarist / 2-tile philosophy, I feel that this is the most intuitive understanding of the rules and keeps closest to their original intent.
Who would have thought that these two fun and creative expansions could cause such drama??
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I will be playing the house rule that the barn has to sit entirely on grass (which could be two halflings meeting or one halfling with the long edge away from the barn). As with the squarist / 2-tile philosophy, I feel that this is the most intuitive understanding of the rules and keeps closest to their original intent.
I am with you there. I would add, no barn on a German Castle. What King would allow such an eyesore near his keep? No king. That is who.
Yeah yeah, the King is dead. Unfortunately so is Prince :'(
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I would add, no barn on a German Castle. What King would allow such an eyesore near his keep? No king. That is who.
No I disagree with you there, they should be allowed to go on grassy bits of German castles. The fewer special cases to remember the better!
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Hell's bells. That is complicated. My first answer is that hopefully these situations would never arise.
Nice to know what we would do though. My guesses:
1) Two farms (depending on the roads on the castle)
2) Two farms and the barn can score both.
3) Same as one? Two farms? Does the castle change anything?
4) As above. Two farms, barns scores both.
5) Farms are not connected. No grass between farms except diagonally which doesn't count. If you had two square tiles diagonally adjacent, it would be two farms.
6) Extrapolating from the rules, I would say the barn can be placed and it scores one of the four farms, the bottom left. Not the top right, top left or the one between cities.
7) This time it scores two farms, top left and top right.
8 ) Three farms, the barn can score two. It cannot score the far right field.
Those would be my guesses. However, I would personally agree with previous comments and house rule that these situations are not allowed.
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1) Two farms (depending on the roads on the castle)
2) Two farms and the barn can score both.
3) Same as one? Two farms? Does the castle change anything?
4) As above. Two farms, barns scores both.
5) Farms are not connected. No grass between farms except diagonally which doesn't count. If you had two square tiles diagonally adjacent, it would be two farms.
6) Extrapolating from the rules, I would say the barn can be placed and it scores two of the four farms, the top and bottom left. Not the top right or the one between cities.
7) As above. Four farms, it scores two.
8) Three farms, the barn can score two. It cannot score the far right field.
Those would be my guesses. However, I would personally agree with previous comments and house rule that these situations are not allowed.
I Agree with 7 statements except 6th variant in wich in my opinion barn scores one farm (not 2). But I also agree that barn could not be placed in all these variants (except 6th). And this does not contradict Wild's answer to Kettlefish:
"2. Can a barn be placed if one (or more) of the tiles at the intersection of corners are Halfling tiles?
Yes, a barn can be placed as long as 4 tiles touch at the intersection, even if there is one or more halfling tiles."
But we need the important addition: Barn can be placed on ONE farm ONLY (see Kettlefish's pictures - http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29572#msg29572) and http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29585#msg29585 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.msg29585#msg29585) - barn is placed on one farm). So in all Decar's examples the number of farms should be counted by Christopher's method but a barn cannot be placed in any case except 6th one.
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Thanks for the input everyone. Just to be clear we found out today a barn CAN be placed in number: 2. What is not clear is how it scored.
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I Agree with 7 statements except 6th variant in wich in my opinion barn scores one farm, not two.
Right you are, it should be one farm. Post edited.
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Updated original post with a few more variations about placing Barns on 3 halflings and included JTAtomico's excellent question too.
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Thanks for the input everyone. Just to be clear we found out today a barn CAN be placed in number: 2. What is not clear is how it scored.
Sorry, Decar. I did not see right scheme in 1st picture for answer 9 (see picture bellow). And it is a great news. According this scheme, the barn is placed on two farms (it seems impossible to count one farm in the picture). And in your 11th variation the barn is placed on 3 farms. And it is possible the case (four halflings, one being rotated by 45 degrees coincides with the other ) when a barn can be placed on 4 farms. So Halflings (in combination with A&M and especially with German Castles) turn a barn into a very powerful tool in the game.
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It doesn't say it's placed on two farms. This is the crux of my questions; is the barn on two farms, or is it one farm with a barn on it - it's currently undefined. :(
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This is getting crazy. My supposition is that farms are only connected if there is grass orthogonally. But I think I misunderstood the question before. Are we asking the question that in these situations, does the barn sit in multiple farms or if placing the barn connects the farms? Both situations seemed flawed. The idea that placing a figure should join previously separated features is difficult to swallow. But, equally difficult is the idea that a barn could score two farms separately. Are there any previous examples of this in the rules? Of a figure either joining features, or being present in and scoring multiple features? I can not think of one (expect for a thief on multiple roads in mine and Decar's Tunnel variation!). The only thing remotely close is a lord in a castle choosing which feature to score in his fief.
JT Atomico's question raises further issues. Both situations are equally problematic. The barn should not be able to block tile placement. But placing a city segment also seems flawed. However, if you logically follow the statement in the rules, it doesn't contradict them. The rules state that:
It may only be placed on the point of intersection of four land tiles, one of which has just been placed by the player. The four
land tiles must only consist of fields at this intersection point.
The rules specify that the four land tiles must be field. Those being the four tiles which are intersecting. It does not say all tiles at the intersection must be field. So, legally, placing a fifth tile which is not city is allowed.
I am not condoning this, I should say. I think it's daft that this situation should be possible. This is simply my interpretation of the rules.
Again, for my money, I will be house ruling that the barn can only be placed on four 'complete corners,' whether that is from square tiles or from multiple halfling tiles.
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Halflings cause a lot of problems - there are many cases that need to be considered and their impact of their decisions are not always immediately clear. The original rules were not written to consider such cases and the Halflings rules have yet to define them.
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Again, for my money, I will be house ruling that the barn can only be placed on four 'complete corners,' whether that is from square tiles or from multiple halfling tiles.
Same here. I can't think of any conflicts that this would cause and it seems to be the most obvious adaption from the spirit of the old rules.
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Halflings cause a lot of problems - there are many cases that need to be considered and their impact of their decisions are not always immediately clear. The original rules were not written to consider such cases and the Halflings rules have yet to define them.
It's not the problems themselves. Each of them can be solved by selection of one of the solutions (for example, one farm under a barn or more? - each of us can make any decision and play, the game experience will show how this decision is balanced and whether it does not disturb the mechanics of the game). But all our decisions are determined by our understanding of Halflings as an expansion to the game. Creating this mini-expansion the author (I hope) should intended to modify something in the rules of the game. So all these questions are questions primarily for the author of the game.
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Apart from this specific theme of farms and a barn: How someone understands the essence (main idea) of the Halflings as a mini-expansion? What do these triangles bring into the game?
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So all these questions are questions primarily for the author of the game.
Certainly agree there, that's the intention of this thread. Halflings introduce numerous corner-cases that need to be considered, that have yet to be documented, or even considered by HiG. That certainly doesn't stop anyone interpreting the rules as they wish; but at the moment no rules exist.
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I've added some more questions to the original post.
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The following answers are my interpretation of the rules as they currently stand. I do not agree with all of these answers. In fact, I do not agree with most of these answers. However, this is my extrapolation from the ruling that any sized tile is one tile.
13) Yes, and it scores four farms.
14) Three farms, one is shared.
15) It isn't complete, but it scores ten points at the end of the game. Quite.
Flyers
1) I would imagine not, but I don't know.
2) The empty space is one tile sized. >:D
3) First diagram is correct, second is correct, third is correct, fourth and fifth... heaven only knows.
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2) The empty space is one tile sized. >:D
Yes - One German Castle Tile ;D Or 4 Halflings
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2) The empty space is one tile sized. >:D
Yes - One German Castle Tile ;D Or 4 Halflings
Exactly. A tile is a special unit. One that changes size.
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I think the only sane way to play is that a barn needs to be on a single farm
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Yesterday, I played with the flying machines and began to reflect over Decar's first question concerning the fliers: may a flier fly over an empty space? I searched for answer in CAR, but I didn't find anything?
Does somebody know the answer?
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As the meeple is flying, I say yes.
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but if there is a hole which could fit 1-German Castle Tile, that would only count as a distance of one :(y)
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but if there is a hole which could fit 1-German Castle Tile, that would only count as a distance of one :(y)
That sounds quite arbitrary in my opinion. How do I decide whether a German Castle fits or not? Is it not clearer to decide that fliers just can't fly over empty holes? Then we don't have to treat "the German-Castleproblem".. :)
However, is it possible that the new CAR will pay attention to the "empty-holeproblem", because it affects the way of playing in a rather extensive manner.
Finally, how do other people deal with this problem?
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We usually say they can fly over empty spaces, and we count them per regular sized tile. So a gap that can fit a german castle is stilll 2, since its not a surety that said castle will be played there
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That's easily said, but a ugly work around. Besides, really the same gap is a distance of 4 tiles when halflings are being used, so the flyer wouldn't be able to cross it anyway.
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For me the Halflings still count as full tile (for cloisters and gaps etc), and same as with the german castles; we count gaps per normal sized tile, since we cant say if there will be a german castle of Halfling layed there.
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For me the Halflings still count as full tile (for cloisters and gaps etc), and same as with the german castles; we count gaps per normal sized tile, since we cant say if there will be a german castle of Halfling layed there.
We do the same. For the halflings, in order to close the cloister, one of the 2 halfling sides must touch the cloister to count. If the cloister is next to empty space, it isn't closed.
We count German Castles as 2 tiles. That seems to simplify most things.
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So you cant put halflings in corners of cloisters? What happens if someone does? Does that mean it cant be completed or it doesn't score?
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So you cant put halflings in corners of cloisters? What happens if someone does? Does that mean it cant be completed or it doesn't score?
I'm not sure your question is directed at me or not.
In the picture below, per our house rule the cloister on the right is complete. The one on the left is worth 7 points at the end of the game.
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We've been playing with the rule that a Halfling will finish a cloister or castle no matter how its played. I like the idea of dirk, might put that in as a house rule.
Coming back to the fliers, Decar, do you use different rules for them in games that are played with Halflings or German castles? If you count the gaps different i mean. And if both are played in the game?
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In the picture below, per our house rule the cloister on the right is complete. The one on the left is worth 7 points at the end of the game.
I like your house rule. I'm still playing that both of those cloisters are complete per the original halfling rules, but I think your house rule is actually closer to the spirit of the original cloister rules.
The CAR says: A cloister is completed when it is surrounded by eight land tiles. (p.17)
If your house rule is not well understood by anyone, you could perhaps redefine cloister completion as something like this:
A cloister is completed when it is surrounded by eight land tiles that each extend to all possible corners of the cloister tile.
(The orthogonally adjacent tiles need to extend to two corners of the cloister tile, and the diagonally adjacent tiles can only extend to one corner of the cloister tile.)
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(The orthogonally adjacent tiles need to extend to two corners of the cloister tile, and the diagonally adjacent tiles can only extend to one corner of the cloister tile.)
Thanks Jungleboy! It is one of those things that makes sense when you see it, but is rather hard to explain. You did a good job with your explanation.
I enjoy the halflings expansions and I like that they are very helpful in closing features or trapping meeple. My wife is good at doing both at the same time. :green-meeple:
I just realized in my haste to take a photo before heading into work, I screwed up the right most example. The one tile can't go there :( I used MS paint to fix it.