Poll

How was your understanding of the ringmaster points?

I only receive ringmaster points only when scoring features in the base game
1 (9.1%)
I receive ringmaster points when scoring any feature (no limitation)
9 (81.8%)
I do something else
1 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Author Topic: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021  (Read 5161 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« on: January 27, 2021, 12:05:10 PM »
Today we got the following clarification from Johannes (HiG) on the HiG Discord server.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON





[Q1] A ringmaster can be placed in a castle. When the castle is completed and scored, does the ringmaster in the castle get ringmaster points for the acrobat spaces and the circus spaces in the vicinity of the castle (4 points in this example if any road was completed)?

[A1] No you do not get the ringmaster points. The rule for the ringmaster says "for expansions the ringmaster counts as a normal meeple".
There is a edge case mentioned for expansion 5 but not for 8. Therefore, no extra points for this meeple.




[Q2] So it considers the ringmaster points only for features in the base game... What about shrines or abbeys, then? Are they excluded? We are considering all monastic buildings (monasteries, abbeys, shrines, German monasteries...) as equivalent features.
We understood this sentence was referring only to the meeple strength... Not that it was not providing ringmaster points in other features.


[A2] No it's referring to everything. Otherwise you will run into problems (like the castle), because there are no 8 tiles surrounding it.  Same thing would apply to German monasteries.

So in this case, this will also affect any monastic buildings (German monasteries, Dutch & Belgian monasteries, Japanese buildings, Darmstadt churches) even if replacing the base game monasteries.

EDIT: Added example image and missing comment.

EDIT 2: There were an additional clarifications about ringmasters a few days later. Please check here in this same thread:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5020.msg74391#msg74391

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5020.0
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 06:18:16 AM by Meepledrone »
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2021, 12:14:55 PM »
So it seems that the ringmaster only provides ringmaster points when placed on the following features:
- Roads
- Cities
- Monasteries
- Fields (even when scored due to a barn - only case admitted in the rules)

The ringmaster will behave as a regular meeple on all other features:
- Abbeys (Exp. 5)
- Shrines (Exp. 6)
- Castles (Exp. 8 )
- German monasteries (even if replacing regular monasteries in the base game)
- Dutch & Belgian monasteries (even if replacing regular monasteries in the base game)
- Japanese buildings (even if replacing regular monasteries in the base game)
- Darmstadt churches (even if replacing regular monasteries in the base game)
- German castles
- German cathedrals
- Baba Yaga's hut

The key for all this was the interpretation of this paragraph on the last page of the rules:

Quote
General: The ringmaster counts as a normal meeple. He has the same uses as a normal meeple in all expansions.

What was your interpretation?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 03:24:38 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline NGC 54

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2021, 12:29:13 PM »
Wagon movement?
I translate WikiCarpedia in Romanian (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Main_Page/ro). I have 47,200+ edits at WICA. My WICA user page: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/User:NGC_54. Romanian translation of WICA: https://wikicarpedia.com/car/Special:LanguageStats?language=ro&x=D#sortable:3=desc.

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2021, 12:29:50 PM »
Well wording of rules is good. But current interpretation by HiG is wrong.

Quote
A. The ringmaster counts as a normal meeple.
Power of ringmaster equals to mornal meeple and is counted as 1 to majority when scoring feature.

Quote
B. He has the same uses as a normal meeple in all expansions.
Ringmaster can be placed on any feature of all expansion as normal meeple can. This means, Shrines, German Castles etc.

I read this sentense, that Ringmaster is standard meeple, not supporting and not specialized meeple like Mayor onle placeable to City.

I don't see any limitation for not getting ringmaster bonus.

Next part of rules talking about Barn, just tells, that ringmaster as farmer not loose ringmaster bonus when replaced by barn or joined to farm with barn.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 12:31:48 PM by Bumsakalaka »
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Offline NGC 54

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2021, 12:34:40 PM »
WikiCarpedia should be updated: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Special:AllComments (starting from "The wagon arrival at a bathhouse can be described.") and clarifications for The Peasant Revolts, ringmaster and count.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 04:26:48 PM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2021, 12:39:08 PM »
HiG was assuming that everyone would understand that the ringmaster is a regular meeple with a hat only providing a bonus to features in the base game and any field scoring. The barn is a special case.  :o

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2021, 12:40:15 PM »
WikiCarpedia should be updated: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Special:AllComments (starting from "The wagon arrival at a bathhouse can be described.") and clarifications for The Peasant Revolts and ringmaster.

This is the easy part...

When you see the rest of today's clarifications you are going to hallucinate!

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2021, 12:43:16 PM »
HiG was assuming that everyone would understand that the ringmaster is a regular meeple with a hat only providing a bonus to features in the base game and any field scoring. The barn is a special case.  :o

I supose, if there will be this issue when creating this, it will be add to rules. like
He has the same uses as a normal meeple [strong]without his bonus[/strong] in all expansions.

This three words I'm missing in rules.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2021, 12:46:46 PM »
The German rules are not very different:
Quote
Allgemein: Dein Zirkusdirektor zählt als normaler Meeple. Er hat in den Erweiterungen dieselben Fähigkeiten wie ein normaler Meeple.

Translation into English:
Quote
General: Your ringmaster counts as a normal meeple. He has the same abilities as a normal meeple in the expansions.

"Same abilities" = "No ringmaster bonus"? :o

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 12:53:06 PM »
"Same abilities" = "No ringmaster bonus"? :o
Good catch.

But translation for Fähigkeit can be also capability, skill.

For me, it's that ringmaster is not Mayor and can be placed on any feature like normal meeple (except Garden of course).

This is nothing about "no ringmaster bonus" as you mentioned.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 01:13:12 PM »
When translating a rule but focusing on a single (or just a few) words, ALWAYS translate them one by one after translating the whole phrase. That is a translation basic rule  ;)

1. Phrase translation:
"Dein Zirkusdirektor zählt als normaler Meeple. Er hat in den Erweiterungen dieselben Fähigkeiten wie ein normaler Meeple."
=
"Your ringmaster counts as a normal meeple. In the expansions it has the same abilities as a normal meeple."

2. Word translation
Fähigkeit = Ability, capability, skill, faculty, property, competence, efficiency, aptitude.

3. Definition translation
Search for the german definition (here for example: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Faehigkeit)
And translate it to english.
Fähigkeit = geistige, praktische Anlage, die zu etwas befähigt; Wissen, Können, Tüchtigkeit
Fähigkeit = mental, practical disposition that enables something; Knowledge, ability, proficiency


And only then you can start searching for conclusions. But simply translating a phrase and then focusing on a single word to build a conclusion makes no sense  :yellow-meeple:

PS: That's how I knew the count may be moved even if we didn't place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (CII only), German rules for CII are clear about that  :P (speaking some German is of course another advantage)

« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 01:14:46 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2021, 02:50:14 PM »
Quote
General: The ringmaster counts as a normal meeple. He has the same uses as a normal meeple in all expansions.

What was you interpretation?
[/quote]

I interpreted this sentence as saying that you can also place your ringmaster on all other expansion's features, just like you can with a normal meeple. You can place it in a shrine, in a German Cathedral, etc.

And when you do, you should receive the ringmaster bonus when the feature is completed. To award bonuses only for base game features, that's just rediculous. Better stop asking clarifications, this is not funny anymore...  >:(

Offline Gagoune

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2021, 03:13:40 PM »
Better stop asking clarifications, this is not funny anymore...  >:(
Yeah! You're right! Let's go demonstrate so that the ringmaster regains his rights!  C:-) C:-) C:-)

Not sure we will get any change on that point however !  :-\

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 03:42:49 PM »
Better stop asking clarifications, this is not funny anymore...  >:(

I'm affraid about asking more question due to monastic buildings etc. ;-D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (ringmasters) - with HiG - 27 01 2021
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 04:02:52 PM »
Better stop asking clarifications, this is not funny anymore...  >:(

Another happy fan!  :o

Look we are not the only ones deceived... I found this thread from 2017 on BGG...  :o

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/2102168/ringmaster-abbey

I find this case similar to some paragraphs in the printed rules of German cathedrals... If you read them without knowing what they meant, you cannot understand what their intention. Once you understand what they wanted to convey thanks to some clarifications, you are able to read the rules and discern their original intention. Do I make any sense?

I always found these paragraphs in the printed English rules especially cryptic:
* Why mixing highwaymen and archbishops?
* Are you scoring all the road tiles together?
* What happens to incomplete cathedrals with completed roads during final scoring? What if they have inns?
* The rules mention road tiles, what happens to the road segments on the German cathedral tile?
* ...

Quote
Final scoring
At the end of the game all unfinished roads leading to cathedrals and all unfinished cathedrals give you points. Each highwayman and each archbishop gives you 1 point for each road tile leading to the cathedral.

[...]

Special rules in combination with expansions
First expansion: For each closed road with an inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile, for your archbishop 2 points instead of 1. Unfinished roads with inns at the end of the game are still worth 0 points. This applies to the highwayman as well as the archbishop.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 04:24:24 PM by Meepledrone »


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