Author Topic: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting  (Read 13885 times)

Offline Carcking

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HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« on: April 13, 2014, 07:19:31 AM »
Has anyone else noticed the number of official expansion releases that come out with holes in the rules and plenty of unanswered questions?

I was thinking we could offer our free services to HiG to perhaps playtest, but at least analize the proprosed rules so we can get all the holes filled and conflicts resolved before they are released.

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=702.0
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Offline kettlefish

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2014, 09:18:00 AM »
Carcking,
I do my best to get some answers from HiG. But now we have weekend.

Please tell me your unanswered questions of the rules.

I need clear questions.

Scott send me yesterday some questions...

Answers from minis  of Spielbox  - I never get any answer.

Offline Carcking

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2014, 05:12:59 PM »
I'm talking about pending expansions before they are printed and released!

Offline kettlefish

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2014, 11:28:46 PM »
I'm talking about pending expansions before they are printed and released!
Ok,
Maik (maik63de - admin at CarcF) and I - we talked and wrote to Moritz Brunnhofer about the newest case in Sheep  and Hills and told him that it should be better if we could have the rules and tiles before these go to print.

HiG like to surpise us, that means if we get the rules and tiles early enough for correction reading and looking for "watermarks" and for "double tiles and missed tiles" than only for secret not for the whole CC-Community.

Play-testing of the next coming game or expansion...
Last year Maik and I played the first time the prototype... And we had some ideas for the game play. This year we played it again (Meeting with Udo Schmitz - Carcassonne-on-Tour). The game changed a bit - interesting... We will see if we can play it the next time perhaps short before it will be published...

Offline rfielder

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2014, 05:53:30 AM »
HiG like to surpise us, that means if we get the rules and tiles early enough for correction reading and looking for "watermarks" and for "double tiles and missed tiles" than only for secret not for the whole CC-Community.
Having the enitre community offer input on rule wording and on playability would be good.  Given that keeping these a secret is not a competitive advantage, that might even be a realistic ask.

However, given that most companies prefer to keep upcoming products quiet, you might expect to have to sign an NDA (None Disclosure Agreement).  That is OK, the goal is to improve the game, and having more eyes on the product prior to release would be a good thing.
Robert Fielder
Brampton, Ontario, Canada  EST

Offline Whaleyland

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2014, 09:11:34 PM »
I would definitely like to be a play tester for the game. I mean, I have blank tiles and everything so could easily mock up my own samples based on playtesting concepts. Spare wood figures are readily available with my Agricola and other games. I'd be happy to sign a NDA to get into the playtesting action. I'm an editor (as is my wife) and, as you can tell with my Complete Dominion Companion, I tend to be obsessive about rules at times. I have long-term plans to combine the Fleet rules as well as the Rivals for Catan rules into single booklets for easier use. I also am behind the Memoir '44 Scenario Booklets, which are largely compilations from the website but have content from other maps as well. Bring me into the fold!

Offline kettlefish

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2014, 10:58:34 PM »
Hi whaleyland,
I know that you are great for play testing. But you can't speak and read German...
And during the test phase (sometimes a year or two years) the rules are in German.

The rules changed during the test phase because of the play testing.
There are seldom rules in English...

Offline Carcking

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2014, 03:10:24 AM »
Hi whaleyland,
I know that you are great for play testing. But you can't speak and read German...
And during the test phase (sometimes a year or two years) the rules are in German.

The rules changed during the test phase because of the play testing.
There are seldom rules in English...

I surely hope this would not hold us back or eliminate us from consideration. The language translation can be overcome, and the rules sometimes need an English translation polish to them in any case. Once the basic mechanic of the expansion is understood the language of game play is universal.  :D

Offline kettlefish

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2014, 03:16:37 AM »
I gave HiG (Moritz Brunnhofer) a link to this topic in the special hidden forum at CarcF.

But really they prefer a small round of people who are testing the expansions.
They (HiG) have since years their own people for play testing.

Offline rfielder

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2014, 06:36:35 AM »
But really they prefer a small round of people who are testing the expansions.
They (HiG) have since years their own people for play testing.
Since the process can be quite long, I would suggest a two phase approach:
1>  Use the current resources to do initial game testing.  Shorten the time for this, but still set standards such as the number of games played and amount of feedback supplied.
2>  Use a wide base of volunteers for final testing of both playability and rules.  During this phase, translations of the rules would be done to ensure international acceptance.  The volunteers would need to sign NDAs, of course.

The goal is to get more eyes on the game and one the rules, and to integrate their feedback into the final, shipping product.

Offline Paul

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2014, 08:39:49 AM »
For what it's worth. I don't mind holding out until it get released, but I can certainly understand the wish to participate, I would too if I was able to!

If the oficial release proves to be faulty there's always a second edition release or rules updates (hopefully) available online. It's not that much different than acquiring CAR edition rules from this forum.

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Offline Carcking

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2014, 08:57:21 AM »
If the oficial release proves to be faulty there's always a second edition release or rules updates (hopefully) available online. It's not that much different than acquiring CAR edition rules from this forum.

The bigger picture is that 99% of the people who play Carcassonne do not know about our Forum, CarcF or the CAR. So they are misguided by the rules they have.

First rate publishers aught to be able to get it right the first time - with their own game. Getting it the second or Nth time doesn't count. We (CarcC and CarcF) are very good at "fixing" the rules once they are released. I would like to see them "fixed" before they are released - so everyone has the correct rules. The Publishers have shown time and again that they are missing a step somewhere in their process because they continue to publish rules with errors and holes. Yet there is a very valuable resource here at the Forums for preventing this.

We could very easily take a set of rules before they go to print and scour them for all the possible rules gaps, errors, conflicts, etc. We do that now - only it's too late by the time we get the chance.

Offline rfielder

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 10:13:02 AM »
If the oficial release proves to be faulty there's always a second edition release or rules updates (hopefully) available online. It's not that much different than acquiring CAR edition rules from this forum.
The catch is that they have to print thousands, or tens of thousands, of the game to get the cost reductions that come with economy of scale.  Which means there are a LOT of flawed games in the world if there are errors or omissions.

As much as we would love to have input on game design, I think it would be enough if we could just participate in the quality control.  Make sure the tiles are consistent - unlike the Sheep and Hills that ship with an unmarked tile.  Make sure the rules work - the more people play testing, the more variations of the game will be checked, and the more combinations of expansions will be checked.

Offline coyote

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 10:14:46 AM »
unlike the Sheep and Hills that ship with an unmarked tile.
It's a collector's item! :)

I'd love to beta, but my German is horrible. :D

Offline Guesclin

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Re: HiG playtesting of new expansions - found wanting
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2014, 11:58:18 AM »
Sounds like a good idea to do some playtesting. But it depends if a company would really wants to supply the goods. They will probably want german persons and the shipping would be killing.
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