Author Topic: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing  (Read 38474 times)

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2014, 07:10:07 AM »
So what does the order of feature completion actually impact. I can only find the wagon and the school.

A few others would be the Castle, collecting Gold and the Messages. There may be others we'll have to think of.

I agree, there is a conflict in the scoring sequence between the current player choosing the sequence vs the Robber being able to decide who to steal points from. If he has to take the first player that scores it seems the active player will dictate who that will be.

So we have:
The Robbers
Gold Mines
The Messages
The Castle
The Wagon
The Teacher

I don't recall how it came to be that all scoring during the scoring phase was not considered simultaneous. If it were the case then such decisions as the Teacher, the Robber, the Castle would be the choice of those players. The Wagon moving, the Messages and collecting Gold is resolved in turn order. Not sure what other mechanics we're not thinking of yet - but they may fall into either of those two categories: players' choice or turn order resolution.

This is all a case for "the active player decides" to be obsoleted, since HiG has challenged the scoring order with the nature of several of the new expansions.

Now I cannot think of a scenario where it is equitable for the active player to decide...

I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2014, 07:25:35 AM »
Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)

I agree that these would be legitimate. The difference with these (compared to the tunnel situation) is that the return of a follower carries a negative cost (no score for the one that was flea'd, a payment for the one that was tower'd).

There doesn't have to be an expense to fleaing a follower. It is likely you would only do so if it was beneficial to you, which seems to make is similar to why you would place a tunnel token at any particular time. Perhaps the flead follower was trapped in a minority situation or in a besieged or cathedral city, or a lake road, etc.

That aside though, I agree that the Tunnel rules do seem to indicate the option to place a tunnel token comes after placing a tile. It's unclear if it has to be done before or after the scoring phase. If done before the scoring phase it certainly seems that it can free up a follower that can be used during that move wood phase.

Offline Paul

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2014, 07:29:56 AM »
Think we (or at least I) could use a few examples.

I can't see any issues with:

Gold Mines
  It's a regular tile and scoring. The bars are handed in order, player's turn and clockwise during the feature completion to those that share the completed feature.

The Messages
  Only the player who's turn it is, is able to get one and only one message. If that players scores several times in one turn, he or she may choose the score order, if possible, and get a message if one of those scoring steps lands on an eligable number on the scoreboard. He or she may also choose each score source which of the two tokens on the scoreboard to move.
  This is the reason we rarely use this expansion, because it slows down the game.

The Castle
  The first segment completed nearby triggers the effect and the owner of the castle scores, whether or not other effects or conditions takes place.
World record holder for a single game of Carcassonne using 10 007 tiles!

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2014, 07:40:18 PM »
Think we (or at least I) could use a few examples.

I can't see any issues with:

Right. There are only issues with these if we hold to the notion (outdated official clarification?) that the current player decides the order in which features score.

Gold Mines
  It's a regular tile and scoring. The bars are handed in order, player's turn and clockwise during the feature completion to those that share the completed feature.

This works fine as long as it is resolved in turn order, not in an order determined by the current player.

The Messages
  Only the player who's turn it is, is able to get one and only one message. If that players scores several times in one turn, he or she may choose the score order, if possible, and get a message if one of those scoring steps lands on an eligable number on the scoreboard. He or she may also choose each score source which of the two tokens on the scoreboard to move.
  This is the reason we rarely use this expansion, because it slows down the game.

Not sure about this one. I believe the message is drawn immediately when the scoring marker hits the space on the scoreboard, and the message is resolved immediately when drawn (suspending the scoring phase). It does not seem that all the features would score simultaneously here because the current player does not have to add all his scores together before moving his scoring marker or his messenger. If he needs just two points to hit a message and one of his features is a two point road, he may score that one first so he can collect his message.

Let's say there is a city that was completed at the same time. He has a minority presence there but there are three pennants in the city. He may be banking on drawing the message that allows him to score points for pennants in a city he occupies, or perhaps the one that allows him to score points for knights. It would be in his interest to draw that before allowing that city to be scored and the followers removed.

Does the current player have that power?

There is a timing consideration for the current player, perhaps depending on the message he draws or would draw, but there are a myriad of combinations to consider.

The Castle
  The first segment completed nearby triggers the effect and the owner of the castle scores, whether or not other effects or conditions takes place.

In the case where the tile placement completes several features at once of varying score value who should decide which scores first? The current player? or the owner of the Castle?

Offline Paul

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2014, 11:19:32 PM »
The Castles

Quote from CAR v7.02, bottom of page 110:

It does not matter whether the structure completed actually scores any points. The castle still receives points for a completed structure which is not occupied by a follower.

Quote from CAR v7.02, top of page 111:

Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.

The messages:

Quote from CAR v7.02 page 136 annotation 412:

If, for example, a city and a road are completed and scored by the active player, a different counting follower could be moved for each feature. However, all points scored by that city must be moved by one counting follower, and all points scored by that road must be moved by one counting follower.

Examples:
  1. I could put all the scoring on the follower or the messenger so it lands on a dark tile and draw a message.
  2. I put the road scoring on the messenger and it lands on a dark tile and I draw a message tile.
      I then put the city scoring on the messenger and it also lands on a dark tile but no message is drawn a second time.

Exception is the Builder as it is considered a second turn scoring thus allowing the player to get a second message.

The goldmines:

Quote from CAR v7.02 page 143:

When more than one player has the majority in a finished structure when gold is to be claimed, or when several structures with a claim to gold are completed at the same time, the gold pieces are distributed among those claiming players. Distribution proceeds
clockwise, starting with the active player, until all of the corresponding gold pieces have been awarded.


Hope this helps!

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2014, 05:42:28 AM »
Hi Yellow. Maybe we're not connecting. Your points are valid, and not in question, which helps to make the case I am trying illustrate - that the "Step 6: Resolve Completed Features" starting on page 182 of the CAR, and under the "Order of Play" section, is now obsolete. There are many cases, as we've pointed out in this discussion, which do not work if the current player decides the order in which features are resolved.
Paragraph 6.c) under Resolve Completed Features grants the current player the power to decide the order of resolution of the features.

That whole section needs to be updated.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 05:47:18 AM by Carcking »

Offline Paul

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2014, 08:15:11 AM »
Probably is something I can't grasp.  :@

My understanding is, there is a general order of play, and then the expansion rule that will overrule this.
  A player should have power, for it is his or her turn after all. That's part of the strategy.

Quote: That whole section needs to be updated.
  This is what I missed earlier and probably the reason for my replies. I'll look into this a bit more.

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2014, 05:45:47 AM »
In going back and reading the rules, I think there is actually an argument to be made for tunnel token placement during the Move Wood phase. The rules state that the token may be placed "on the land tile which has just been placed", seemingly indicating that this is after tile placement. It doesn't say that you can't place a token during the scoring phase, but to me it kind of sounds like a Move Wood action that doesn't prevent follower placement.

It looks to me that this would be sensible and consistent with what we know. I may of course change my mind later.

P.S. I would suggest adding "claim tunnel" as a step 4G with a note that actually it can be any part of step 4. I can see reasons for claiming the tunnel late (for example waiting to see the flier dice roll) but I cannot see any reasons for early tunnel placement better tham "do it now before I forget".

The issue here is that we don't actually know what HiG's intent is for the timing of tunnel token placement. The rules do not restrict the placement to the Move Wood phase, so without an official clarification it would be inappropriate of me to specifically put tunnel placement there right now, even if that's what would make sense to you and me.

Ultimately, the CAR is a compilation of HiG's rules. The Turn Order has been put together by users on this forum, which is why there is fuzziness when it comes to some of the steps relative to recent rulings. I wholeheartedly agree that the Turn Order needs some updating, but it still has do be done within the confines of the official rules and clarifications from HiG.

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2014, 06:03:02 AM »
Regarding the placement of a Flea - it would seem a player could flea his own follower (anytime) in order to have one to place that turn. Also, is there a similar sequence with the Tower if a player ransoms a follower back at anytime? (Although admittedly there is a cost associated with that one.)

I agree that these would be legitimate. The difference with these (compared to the tunnel situation) is that the return of a follower carries a negative cost (no score for the one that was flea'd, a payment for the one that was tower'd).

There doesn't have to be an expense to fleaing a follower. It is likely you would only do so if it was beneficial to you, which seems to make is similar to why you would place a tunnel token at any particular time. Perhaps the flead follower was trapped in a minority situation or in a besieged or cathedral city, or a lake road, etc.

I actually wasn't thinking correctly when I commented on fleeing the fleas. I was thinking about the follower leaving a potentially high-scoring feature, but I forgot that the follower still had to stay within the same feature.

Offline obervet

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2014, 06:16:04 AM »
So what does the order of feature completion actually impact. I can only find the wagon and the school.

A few others would be the Castle, collecting Gold and the Messages. There may be others we'll have to think of.

I agree, there is a conflict in the scoring sequence between the current player choosing the sequence vs the Robber being able to decide who to steal points from. If he has to take the first player that scores it seems the active player will dictate who that will be.

So we have:
The Robbers
Gold Mines
The Messages
The Castle
The Wagon
The Teacher

I don't recall how it came to be that all scoring during the scoring phase was not considered simultaneous. If it were the case then such decisions as the Teacher, the Robber, the Castle would be the choice of those players. The Wagon moving, the Messages and collecting Gold is resolved in turn order. Not sure what other mechanics we're not thinking of yet - but they may fall into either of those two categories: players' choice or turn order resolution.

This is all a case for "the active player decides" to be obsoleted, since HiG has challenged the scoring order with the nature of several of the new expansions.

Now I cannot think of a scenario where it is equitable for the active player to decide...

It seems that scoring was considered simultaneous at least through Bridges, Castles, and Bazaars, as the special considerations for moving multiple wagons or scoring a castle after multiple features were completed would imply this. It looks like it was the introduction of the Robbers and the Messages that required each individual scoring event to be considered separately. To me, that makes the scoring much less intuitive and much more intrusive and likely to break up the flow of the game, which is why the Messages and Robbers have only hit my table once.

In any event, the Turn Order definitely needs some work. It's on the To Do list.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2014, 09:04:56 AM »
...The Turn Order has been put together by users on this forum, which is why there is fuzziness when it comes to some of the steps relative to recent rulings. I wholeheartedly agree that the Turn Order needs some updating, but it still has do be done within the confines of the official rules and clarifications from HiG.

I like the Turn Order Summary. It puts into application virtually all of the content of the CAR.

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2014, 05:27:51 AM »
What do you all think - should we start a new topic about the Turn Order Summary, like that one what we have had in the old CarcC Forum?

Offline Carcking

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2014, 06:52:20 AM »
What do you all think - should we start a new topic about the Turn Order Summary, like that one what we have had in the old CarcC Forum?

I've been talking with obervet recently, and I will be working on updating the Turn Order Summary this Fall. I will take all the suggestions I can get, so might not be a bad idea to start a new thread.

Offline asparagus

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2014, 02:17:51 AM »
What do you all think - should we start a new topic about the Turn Order Summary, like that one what we have had in the old CarcC Forum?

I've been talking with obervet recently, and I will be working on updating the Turn Order Summary this Fall. I will take all the suggestions I can get, so might not be a bad idea to start a new thread.

Great. I have been without internet (actually unexpectedly) for almost a week due to travelling. At the time I lost contact I had developed some misunderstandings of the rules, especially the Robbers and Messengers. Currently I have worked through those and currently I have no major disagreement with the CAR or the turn order. However I do find that the official rules are often horribly vague, and the CAR does not always clarify as much as one might hope - and that sometimes it is difficult to relate the rules and the CAR turn order or examples. I also have a large number of minor disagreements with the CAR turn order and suggestions for improvements.

I have been coming to the conclusion that dribbling these out onto the forum is probably not the best approach and as I said currently I have nothing tile-disturbing anyway. I have been preparing a document with I hope a much clearer presentation of the turn order with a careful justification. I hope the revision of the turn order will benefit from this. It also goes without saying that I am immensely indebted to the creators of the CAR as any level of misunderstanding I may have achieved now is far superior to the simple "understanding" I had with just an RGG basic set.

Offline rfielder

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Re: Complete Annotated Rules v. 7.0, 2nd printing
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2014, 10:31:02 AM »
When I go to the Carcassonne Central home pages, and click on the link to the CAR for "Carcassonne: Standard Edition", it still points to version 6.4 of the CAR.

It shows as "Posted by: obervet 11 December 2013, 20:26:05"

I see that the latest download of V6.4 was today at 13:24hrs.

I verified that if you click on the link labelled "S-CAR v6.4.pdf", you do get V6.4 of the CAR.

Can this be updated to point to the newest version?

Thanks!
Robert Fielder
Brampton, Ontario, Canada  EST


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