Author Topic: The Dragon and the Fairy  (Read 450 times)

Offline PurpleMeeple

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The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2022, 02:57:10 PM »
Adding the fairy bonus to a larger city might not seem like a big deal but when you are able to get fairy bonuses on roads or cloisters the benefit is clearer - is a 33% bonus for a cloister for example or nearly double the points for a 2 tile city.  Moving the fairy regardless of dragon protection does have merit. If you are completing a feature you already own and the fairy is not already protecting one of your own important meeple close to the dragon’s location then it makes sense to move the fairy to the feature you are about to complete for the bonus.

With a game that is, as often as not, won by a difference of just a few points or less, even small fairy bonuses can be worth it.

Scoring a completed feature and getting your meeple back is not counted as ‘moving’ a meeple, it happens during scoring stage and after you may have already ‘moved wood’ in the previous stage.  Nor is moving the scoreboard meeple counted as ‘moving wood’


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« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 03:28:25 PM by PurpleMeeple »
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:violet-meeple:

It's all fun and games.. until you add The Tower expansion! ;-)

Online Meepledrone

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2022, 03:16:56 PM »
As I said in a previous post, one thing is the numbering on the phases in the printed rules and other is the actions described in each phase. The writen rules indicate that the dragon moves after placing meeple although the step numbering indicates otherwise. After re-reading caefully and cross checking with the rules for the old edition, you can see the numbering is wrong.

Additionally, it is not the only time when HiG describes an action in the phase it is triggered, not the one where it happens. The same issue happens with the removal of the abbot (The Abbot), the shepherd actions (Exp. 9) or the scoring of an acrobat pyramid (Exp. 10). This causes a lot of confusion incremented by the lack of space and the convoluted wording at times.

I can tell you that Exp. 3 is the most visited major expansion on WICA. I rearranged the rules and separated the volcano and the dragon to help understand the steps to follow.

The German rules were clearer about the fairy in the 1st Edition, believe or not, sinc they mentioned the fairy too (as reflected in the CAR):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon_(1st_edition)#The_dragon
Quote
A player who places a dragon tile may deploy a follower or move the fairy as usual. Then (before scoring) the game is interrupted —the dragon is on the move!

When placing a dragon tile, the active's player dilemma before starting to move the dragon is always the same:
A) Shall I move the fairy and protect any of my meeples closer whith range from the dragon?
B) Shall I occupy a feature with a meeple, especially if the dragon tile extends or completes and interesting one?
C) What if I sacrifice a meeple to the dragon?
D) How can I defend my position if I use the dragon to attack others? Am I ready for retaliation?
So the fairy is an important piece of the puzzle.

My experience with the dragon is that:
* Some areas of the board get empty and people try to re-occupy features that they or someone else lost due to the dragon.
* The fairy can also be used to block the dragon at a dead end.
* You have to build small and quick especially at the beginning of the game.
* At the end of the game, if combining several expansions, the dragon will get cornered in the playing area and far from the active areas of the board.

Along with magic portals, the fairy will help you alleviate the damage the dragon can provoke .

If you feel some additional clarifications to WICA would be useful, please let me know.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2022, 07:50:11 AM »
OK, after reading all of this post, and re-reading it a few times, I think that everything comes down to a simple definition of a single word, “move”.

The Fairy portion of the page talks says: The fairy moves: On any turn in which you do not place (or move) a meeple, you may assign the fairy to one of your meeples by placing the fairy directly next to it.

So, what are the proper definitions of or move in the game of Carcassonne?

If I do not place a meeple when I place the Dragon, so I can remove my Abbot from a Garden and score some points, is that counted as a move?

If the placement of the Dragon completes a feature where I also have my wagon, is the eventual movement of that wagon considered a meeple move? So can I also move the Fairy?

“You keep track of your score with the meeple you placed on the scoreboard before starting the game.” If placing the Dragon will result in you scoring points, is that a move of your scoring meeple?

The fact that the player who places the Dragon can undo the placement of the Fairy by all of the other players is to put it mildly, critical!  The restriction of “placing a meeple” is obvious, but the definition for moving a meeple is extremely fuzzy and depends on how everyone chooses to define other words within the rules!

So, bottom line, can someone give us a complete list of the various ways that a meeple is moved as a result of the placement of a tile?
Totally addicted to this game

Offline kothmann

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2022, 08:24:11 AM »
So, bottom line, can someone give us a complete list of the various ways that a meeple is moved as a result of the placement of a tile?
Probably not.   >:D

In a letter to his nephew in 1787, Thomas Jefferson observed that when you pose a difficult decision “to plowman and a professor, the former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules.”

The plowman’s answers to your questions are “yes” (Abbot score = move), “yes” (wagon move = move) and “no” (scoring track meeple not a meeple in this context).   8)

It seems like you want to use a House Rule that does not allow moving the Fairy after placing a dragon tile.  Or at least until after the dragon has moved.  I think many people would agree that this change would result in a more tactical game than the official rules—so go for it!   :(y)

And then report back with the observed effects!    :)

Offline PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2022, 09:07:31 AM »
What is interesting here is that the words (or move) were so important in defining when the Fairy can move that they were put in parentheses!

Kothmann’s first response agrees with only two items for the definition of “move”: The Abbot score is a move, and the Wagon move is a move.  But let me ask this, if moving the scoring meeple IS NOT a move, and the Abbot score IS a move; what is the difference between the Abbot score and the normal completion of a feature?  OK, the Abbot is MOVEd from the board back to your meeple supply, but if you completed a feature, isn’t your meeple that was on that feature also MOVEd back to your supply?

If (or move) is so important, where is the long list of what it means?

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2022, 10:17:27 AM »
Well, look at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play, go to "quick selector" tab, press "select all" and read step 2b.

"move" is only considering step 2b movements, not any other (so wagon movement is not considered since it doesn't happen in step 2b, only wagon placement is considered).

It's very hard to understand the line when looking at the rules, but quite easy when looking at the order of play.

Note that the order of play's step 2b states:
Quote
Skip this step if you removed a knight with a princess symbol.
Otherwise, you may do one and only one of the following:

Fairy movement is one of those following actions from which you can perform only one.
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Offline PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2022, 11:16:29 AM »
So now you are even taking the wagon out of the definition of “or move”!

You are basically saying that the person who places the Dragon tile has almost full control of the placement of the Fairy before the Dragon moves.

The line in WikiCarPedia clearly states that the placement of the Fairy happens: “On any turn in which you do not place (or move) a meeple”.  But is seems as if the words “or move” have no meaning whatsoever. I keep asking what is a "move" and everyone keeps saying “that’s not a move”, ”that’s not a move”!

So why should any player try to “protect” their meeples with the Fairy when the ONLY thing that the person who draws a Dragon tile has to do is not place a meeple to completely unprotect what any of the other players are trying to protect.

The expansion is Princess and Dragon, and we are declaring the player who draws the Dragon tile as King.

Offline kothmann

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2022, 12:08:51 PM »
wagon movement is not considered [movement] since it doesn't happen in step 2b.
Oops.  I never play with the wagon so I forgot the sequence.  But I still think this falls into the category of questions that are easily resolved by Plowman's intuition.

But is seems as if the words “or move” have no meaning whatsoever.
Maybe it is referring to Tower floor placement and meeple capture?

Quote
...the ONLY thing that the person who draws a Dragon tile has to do is not place a meeple...
As a general rule, not placing a meeple when you have a good option is a very bad outcome.  The active player (who draws the dragon tile) has the right to move the dragon first, and therefore can often start the beast in a direction that makes it difficult or impossible for the opponents to cause any of the active player's meeples to be eaten, even if there is collusion among the opponents.  If that would allow you to claim a 2-tile city or a 6-point monastery, then moving the fairy instead is a very bad result!

I agree with you that the game would be more tactically interesting if the step-2 sequence after drawing a dragon tile were:
  • usual step-2 stuff; {I don't think you should move the dragon in step-1 of the turn, because then you could place the dragon tile very near the location of the dragon, move the dragon to kill an opponent's meeple, and then put your own meeple in the now-empty feature after the dragon motion is over.}
  • move the dragon;
  • move the fairy if no wood moved in part 1 of step 2 (usual stuff)  {I don't think you should eliminate the ability to move the fairy when drawing a dragon tile, because you might complete your own feature by placing the dragon tile and want to move the fairy to secure the 3-point bonus.}

Even though this sequence might be better, it isn't totally crazy as it is now, and it would be a disaster to change the official rules, after so much effort has gone into defining the current sequence.  House rules are an easy fix to your problem.

I think en passant in chess and infield-fly rule in baseball are both unnecessary complexities, but they are both well over 100 years old, so we're stuck with them.

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2022, 12:14:38 PM »
Short answer:

Beyond the ambiguities in the rules, the "or move" part may refererence the removal of a knight with the princess tile.

===

Long answer:

As commented above, the explaression "place (or move) a meeple" will refer to actions taking place in 2. Placing a meeple that affect meeples. As we know, we will have to apply tunnel vision and consider only those actions included in the base game and Exp. 3 alone...

If we check the consolidated Order of Play on WICA as corinthiens13 recommended, you may see the following groups of actions happening in 2. Placing a meeple which cannot happen when you move the fairy:
* Placing a wooden meeple (protecting it or not when relevant):
   - on the tile just placed
   - on an acrobat pyramid on an adjacent tile
   - on another tile with a magic portal (this may include acrobat pyramids)
   - on another tile with a flying machine (this may include acrobat pyramids)
   - on a tower
   - on the Wheel of Fortune
* Placing a special figure:
   - a builder
   - a pig
   - a barn
   - a shepherd
* Placing a neutral figure:
   - a tower floor (that may possibly capture a meeple)
   - (the fairy)
* Placing a token:
   - a tollhouse
   - a little building
* Moving a meeple:
   - Removing an abbot
   - Removing a knight with a princess tile
   - Triggering the scoring of an acrobat pyramid
   - Removing a meple with a festival tile (The Festival)
   - Removing a meeple trapped by Solovei Razboynik
   - Removing a meeple trapped by Vodyanoy
   - Protecting a meeple already placed
* Moving a special figure:
   - Removing a special figure trapped by Solovei Razboynik
   - Removing a special figure trapped by Vodyanoy

After any of this actions you may place a phantom, except if you removed a knight with a princess tile:
* Placing a phantom (protecting it or not when relevant):
   - on the tile just placed
   - on another tile with a magic portal, if not used earlier (this may include acrobat pyramids)
   - on another tile with a flying machine, if not used earlier (this may include acrobat pyramids)
   - on a tower
   - on the Wheel of Fortune

The tunnel vision in the rules may reduce the scope to the underlined groups and the actions in bold. There's a lot left out as you can see, there are more options than just placing or moving a meeple...

If you try HiG or other publishers to cover all the possiblities in their printed rules, you may go crazy. We don't have much information about the context of the "(or move)" part. It was added in the new edition and it may be just a reference to removing a knight with the Princess tile, that is, the only option intrinsic to the expansion in this case.

The wagon moves at the end of 3. Scoring a feature, so it is out of the equation, the same all actions affecting meeples in 1. Placing a Tile (opening gifts, Wheel of Fortune actions, peasant revolts,...) or after scoring (escaping a besieged city, using crop circles...) the same as the movement of scoring meeples.

The sequence of actions is the one we discussed earlier, backed by the 1st Edition rules and its clarifications for years. You can see how the addition of two well intentioned words is dragging you down to the dungeons of the despair. The wording in the rules is not perfect and it harbors many ambiguities... I can tell you after more than three years struggling with the rules and their meaning between the lines. (For example, read the printed rules of C2 Exp. 5 (top of page 3) and tell me if the mayor is a meeple, or tell me your understanding of the first clarifications about the ringmaster in C2 Exp. 10, page 6)

Moving the fairy before the dragon moves gives an advantage to the player placing the dragon tile, but once he makes the dragon's first movement, anything can happen with the rest of the unprotected meeples, especially at the eraly stages of the game when all the features and meeples are clustered in a small area.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 12:18:13 PM by Meepledrone »


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