Author Topic: The Dragon and the Fairy  (Read 449 times)

Online PapaGeek

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The Dragon and the Fairy
« on: January 07, 2022, 09:42:40 PM »
We played our first Princess and Dragon expansion tonight, and one question was in the front of everyone’s mind. When you place the Dragon tile, if you do not place a meeple, can you move the Fairy before the Dragon moves?

Just did a Google search on the subject and got a lot of conflicting answers, and WikiCarPedia does not give a definite answer either.

Item 2. Placing a meeple says: You may place a meeple on a Dragon tile, unlike Volcano tiles. Then the dragon moves.

 Then 2b. The dragon moves: the very first words are: Starting with the active player and proceeding clockwise, players take turns moving the dragon one space at a time (vertically or horizontally) until the dragon has moved 6 spaces or is unable to move.

The Fairy portion of the page talks says: The fairy moves: On any turn in which you do not place (or move) a meeple, you may assign the fairy to one of your meeples by placing the fairy directly next to it.

OK, it is not specific!  If placing the dragon includes the 6 moves of the dragon and one of the dragon moves causes a meeple to be “moved” from the board back into a player’s supply, then you would not be entitled to move the fairy.

There are a number of “Additional clarifications” on the WikiCarPedia page, and there are a number of conflicting answers to this question on various website for the Google search: What is the official ruling on this question?

Can I place a dragon tile, then move the Fairy from another player’s meeple onto my meeple for my personal protection BEFORE the dragon moves?



Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5653.0
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Online PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2022, 10:13:20 PM »
Let me add one more comment to this question:

On each move during the game, the players can make a decision to either place a meeple or move the fairy.  If your big city is near the dragon, it might be worth not placing a meeple to protect that city.

If the person who draws a dragon tile has the right to remove your protection before the dragon moves, why even bother to try to defend your position?

Moving the dragon is the very first thing in section 2b, which is part of placing your meeple.  The entire process of “placing your meeple” or “moving a meeple” has not been completed yet, so how can you move the Fairy if the meeple placement or movement has not been completed?

In my opinion, the player who places the dragon tile should wait until after the dragon moves to see if they are able to move the fairy, which can happen only if the dragon did not consume any meeples!

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2022, 10:45:49 PM »
1:
Yes,the dragon moves after the "placing a meeple" step, so you can move the fairy, before the dragon moves

2.
Correct

2b:
The ddagon is NOT a meeple, here's the confusion  :yellow-meeple:

See meeple list here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Figures

So final answer is yes you can  ;)

Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Offline PurpleMeeple

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The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2022, 12:27:11 AM »
As answered by corinthiens13, Yes the active player can move the fairy or place a meeple before moving the dragon happens, and then entering the scoring phase

The meeples consumed by the dragon are technically ‘eaten’ rather than ‘moved’ and effectively ’respawn’ back with their player.

The dragons moves are initiated by the active player drawing a dragon tile but are not technically part of the active players turn (it just happens during it), so consumed meeple are not being ‘moved’ by the active player.  Otherwise the dragon would technically only be able to eat one meeple per turn :)


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« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 01:47:05 AM by PurpleMeeple »
PM
:violet-meeple:

It's all fun and games.. until you add The Tower expansion! ;-)

Online PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2022, 12:43:28 AM »
So what you are saying is that the Fairy is a useless object during the game!  The ONLY player who has any use for the Fairy is the player who draws a Dragon tile. It is a total waste of time to sacrifice placing a meeple during your turn to move a Fairy to protect your features because only the person who draws the Dragon tile can do that!  The only player who can protect a feature from the Dragon is the player who actually draws the Dragon tile!

Can you also explain the words (or move) in the definition of when the Fairy can move?  If part of the definition of placing the dragon tile includes moving the dragon which can land on a meeple and “move” it back to the owners supply stack, isn’t that movement of a meeple part of placing the dragon tile?

It is interesting, the printed version of the Zman game rules (https://images.zmangames.com/filer_public/da/30/da30ce4e-814e-427c-b97b-2be3501961e1/zm7813_carcassonne_exp3_rules.pdf) defines moving the dragon as “1b” part of Placing a Tile, while the WikiCarPedia online rules have moving the dragon as “2b” part of Placing a meeple.  Was this an attempt by WikiCarPedia to make sure that “or move” has no meaning for the player who draws a dragon tile!

We talk about the Princess, but these rules make the person who draws the dragon tile, the King!

I’d be interested in what the other players think about the way this has been redefined, 1b to 2b!

Also, can someone give me an example on how meeples are “moved” during the game! Are we only talking about the wagon meeple? And of course doesn’t that only happen after the scoring phase, not the placement of tiles and meeples!

Online PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2022, 12:50:20 AM »
As I stated in the beginning of this post, tonight was the first night we have played the Princess and Dragon.  The first game was basic tiles plus exp 3.  The second game also included Traders and Builders.

During both game we did play with the house rules that yes, the person who places the Dragon tile is the player who also makes the final placement of the Fairy before the Dragon moves.  And, all of us found this to be a rule that made the Fairy a relatively useless object to everyone else but the person drawing the Dragon tile!

Offline PurpleMeeple

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The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2022, 01:27:13 AM »
The active player can only move the fairy to protect their meeple if they do not wish to claim a feature on the dragon tile by placing a meeple on it.

The fairy’s other Benefits are 1 free point if you still have the fairy on your meeple’s tile when your turn comes back around (easy to forget to do this though) and extra points for completing your Road/city/cloister etc that the fairy is occupying.

Remember what I said above, dragon ‘eats’ meeples not ‘moves’ them, then they effectively respawn back with their player (the player gets them back).

Edit: I prefer this expansion’s mechanics for removing other players meeple from the map, at least you just get them back if it happens to you, no taking prisoners like with The Tower.  Feels much more in keeping with rest of game.

 
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 01:42:58 AM by PurpleMeeple »

Offline PurpleMeeple

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The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2022, 01:39:36 AM »
Apart from the wagon example, ‘moving’ meeple generally means placing a meeple on a feature or removing a meeple (like removing abbot from incomplete feature or removing other players meeple from city using princess tile for example).  But not being eaten by the dragon.


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Online PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2022, 04:30:32 AM »
From our Google search we can see that this question has been asked in many different languages around the world, with many different opinions for answers.

We tried to get the English version of the expansion, but Z_MAN games was out of stock and we had to get a Nordic version which came with 3 copies of the rules in 3 languages.  What WikiCarPedia displays as “2b. The dragon moves”, our Nordic rules show as:
1a. Dragen flyr      Norwegian: The dragon flies
1a. Draken flyger   Swedish: The dragon flies
1a. Dragen flyver   Danish: The dragon flies
And the on line PDF from Z_MAN games shows as:
1b. The dragon moves

The standard Carcassonne turn happens in 3 parts: 1 place a tile, 2 place a meeple, and 3 score the features.

The published versions of this expansion do not specifically state that the person who draws and places the Dragon tile can move the Fairy around before the dragon moves.  In fact, the rules say that the dragon moves in part 1 while placing the tile, not in part two while placing or moving a meeple (Fairy).

In our personal opinions, letting the player who draws the dragon tile move the Fairy before the dragon moves reduces the Fairy to a Booby Prize!  If I draw a useless tile that isn’t worth placing a meeple on, I get to move the Fairy to one of my tiles. Then, if all of the other players draw good tiles that are worth placing a meeple on, WOW I get 1 point at the beginning of my next turn, and an extra 3 points if the feature my Fairy is on is completed.

The question of should I place a meeple or protect my feature is totally gone, because only the player who draws the dragon tile gets to protect their own feature!

So I have to ask again, why did WikiCarPedia move “the dragon moves” from Placing a Tile to Placing a Meeple?

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2022, 04:36:33 AM »
Different versions of official rules place the dragon action in 1b or 2b. Placing it in 2b on WICA comes from a clarification by HiG  :yellow-meeple:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 06:49:57 AM by corinthiens13, Reason: Typo »

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2022, 06:17:30 AM »
Well, there are always House Rules.

Offline kothmann

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2022, 06:46:09 AM »
And, all of us found this to be a rule that made the Fairy a relatively useless object to everyone else but the person drawing the Dragon tile!
You aren’t alone.  Check out the Element of the Week: Fairy thread for many similar comments, like this:

…definitely the biggest weakness of the expansion--makes the fairy extremely powerful, but all that power is based in luck.

As far as the side jobs the Fairy has when not protecting from the Dragon, here is @Whaleyland’s summary, from BGG:
Quote
…other rules that are hard to remember, rather pointless (pun intended), and rarely followed. Indeed, I haven't included the extra fairy rules in any game I have played since the third time I played this expansion…

Are you sure you don’t want to play the Fairy-free “Wyvern” variant from Old City expansion?   >:D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2022, 11:52:46 AM »
If you check the Turn Summary of Big Boxes 1-3 the Dragon moves after placing a meeple or moving the fairy... This has been like this since the very beginning.

Please check this image from Big Box 1.



The C2 P&D rules are rather misleading, since the step numbering is not right. It does not match what it is said in the text:

Quote
The Dragon (12 tiles): Dragon tiles are placed exactly like those in the base game [Phase 1]. Unlike Volcano tiles, you are allowed to place a meeple on a Dragon tile [Phase 2]. Then... the dragon moves! [Phase 1b? :o It happens after Phase 2]

So how can the dragon move in Phase 1b if the movement happens after Phase 2? Unluckily, this mistake by HiG has spread all over to other publishers. I discussed this issue with HiG about one year ago and they haven't even bothered to update the PDF version of the rules on their site.  :'(

You may find all this summarized in the the consolidated Order of Play here (select the expansions you are interested in):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 12:05:52 PM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2022, 01:54:29 PM »
I just prepared this quick-and-dirty summary of the Turn Sequence tables included in Big Boxes 1-7... Of course, many expansions are not represented and should be included such as Exp. 10 and The Phantom (with new meeples) and others including tokens or implementing new mechanics affecting meeples.

In any case, this table may come handy.  ;)

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Re: The Dragon and the Fairy
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2022, 02:13:53 PM »
Thanks for the updated turn sequence, but again, the printed rules for Princess and Dragon in at least the four languages that I referenced in my second post on this thread specifically say that moving the dragon is part of phase 1, not at the end of phase 2!

We can live with the rule that the player who draws the dragon tile is the player who makes the final decision on where the Fairy is when the Dragon starts moving.  The only issue we have with this rule is that it greatly diminishes the role/strategy of the Fairy.  Why would I ever want to sacrifice placing a meeple that would take control of another feature to protect another feature with the Fairy if that sacrifice would be basically useless according to the rules?

And this brings up another question.  If the dragon tile is placed in such a way that it completes one of your features, does that mean that you can’t move the Fairy.  The rules for the basic game do say that when you score that feature at the end of your turn, you “move the meeple you placed on the scoreboard before starting the game” the number of points that your feature was worth!

Again, we can live with the rule, it just doesn’t seem logical to us that this rule almost eliminates that portion of the strategy for moving the Fairy!

Like I said, so far, we have only played 2 games that included the Princess and Dragon expansion, and we definitely enjoyed and talked about the various strategic moves for the Fairy each turn.  We will definitely have to talk about how this changes our strategy for the Fairy when we get together for our next weekly game night!


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