Author Topic: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation  (Read 2852 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2022, 04:03:07 PM »
Ha ha ha!

Old dog? You are only 2 years older than me. :o
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 04:06:23 PM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline totor66

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2022, 01:57:33 AM »
Looks great, will try to reproduce slovak final to see if I think the same as top players :)

couple mistake found in coordinates page 17, I write in red when It was previously a mistake

a) [0;0]N:crfr
b) A:[0;+1]S:ccff-J+>W:K
c) B:[-1;-1]W:frrr>E:R
d) A:[+1;+1]S:ffrr>W:F
e) B:[+1;0]N:frfr
f) A:[-1;+1]E:crrf>W:R=+8A
g) B:[+2;0]E:frrr=+4B
Carcassonne Fan since 2014

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2022, 06:35:42 AM »
Go for it totor66  :D

Thank you for noticing! There is indeed a single tile shift in the y coordinate as you describe. Now included in the errata.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 07:49:43 AM by DIN0 »

Offline carlium

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2022, 10:36:14 AM »
As I mentioned to DIN0, I like this project. I think this notation is simple and fits very well in tournaments and solo-challenge games.

I am not a pencil and paper person, so, I developed a very simple web tool, mostly intended for smartphones, to help us to notate a Carcassonne game (base only as intended in DIN0's proposal) and export a game in a simple text file.

https://carliunterik.github.io/cgn/

Hope it can be useful for some of you.

Best,

PD. next step perhaps is to create an interpreter, maybe!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 09:35:19 AM by carlium, Reason: Tool now has a better layout on desktops too. »

Offline Challa007

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2022, 10:57:56 AM »
Another great addition to the community's toolbox! +1 merit from me

PD. next step perhaps is to create an interpreter, maybe!

Do you mean that we then can see the play happen with the cards? This would be awesome!

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2022, 05:30:27 PM »
Thank you again carlium for creating this amazing app! This will certainly encourage more people to try the notation for themselves and they will have a great digital tool to do it  :(y)

An interpreter would indeed be an awesome tool as well.

Offline kothmann

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2022, 05:43:09 PM »
next step perhaps is to create an interpreter, maybe!
“interpreter” = read the notation to create a game?  It would be amazing to be able to jump to a certain point in the game.  Even if you could just generate an image of the game and the score at that point, someone could build the game quickly with tiles and then play out possible endings….

Anyway, +1 merit from me.  Thanks for sharing.

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2022, 05:48:16 PM »
Yep. I was thinking of a program which where you could let the game play out like a BGA replay, but you would also have the ability to both advance and go back in the game by individual turns, and also to just jump directly into any turn by clicking on it in the notation.
This could also help the puzzle-makers set up their scenarios.

Offline kothmann

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2022, 07:24:38 AM »
I am not a pencil and paper person...
I actually really enjoy the paper-and-pencil experience--reminds me of keeping score at a baseball game.  ^-^

But, baseball is slow, so you have plenty of time to erase your log errors and then argue about what actually just happened, even if the official answer is incomprehensible.  >:D  Also, paper scoresheets are harder to share on the internet, which hopefully is part of the fun here.

Before seeing @carlium's nifty tool, I did what any mechanical engineer does when facing what looks like a coding problem: I created a spreadsheet.  In this case, a google sheet, so it would be easy to share--check it out here.  You should be able to save this as an Excel sheet from the File menu, under Download.  I'm not sure if you can copy to a new google sheet?  PM me if you have any trouble.  I don't think this will work well at all on a phone.  The iPad is okay, but I prefer using my laptop, which is really an unwelcome intrusion of technology into the middle ages.   ::)

Each column contains one element of the turn, in what seemed to be an intuitive order to me, and @DIN0's notation is assembled automagically in the final column.  Here is what it looks like in a 4-player game (there are templates for 2, 3 or 4 players, plus the 3 games we logged so far):



Things to note about this sheet:
  • unlike @carlium's tool, there are no helpful graphics or menus, so you have to manually enter compass directions.
  • The "orientation" is optional for unidirectional tiles (ffff, cccc, rrrr).
  • The "direction" is optional for any meeple placement when there is only one feature of that type on the tile just placed.  This helps to speed-up the logging.
  • I added a "comment" field, which I append to the end of the line using the python comment character '#'.  I have mostly been filling this in when reviewing the game to help me learn from what happened.
  • I added a log of the end-of-game scores for each of the 4 types of features in the top left, and there is a "running total" in the top right of the sheet.  We found this useful to double-check with the scoreboard while logging, improving both the log and the score on the board.
  • In the {Role} column, the sheet won't accept anything except F, K, M, R.  This is because I kept trying to put "N" for kNight, like chess.
  • I leave caps-lock on, so the tile edges are entered uppercase, but the script converts them to lowercase to conform to the standard.
  • You have to put a single-quote character (') before the + to indicate a shield--otherwise, google sheets thinks you are entering a formula.
  • I started using a ^ to denote the presence of a monastery on a tile.  Obviously not important with only the base game.

I entered my paper-and-pencil log (earlier post) to test the spreadsheet.  Then we played two more games--one 2-player and one 4-player.  Logging slows play a bit more in 2-player games; it is still a noticeable if small nuisance in 4-player games, too.  But I really like being able to go over the game at the end!  Also, in 2 of 3 games logged so far, there was a scoring error!   :-[

Here is a photo of the final landscape and the complete log for the very exciting 4-player 60-tile game we played last night (blue has 4 too many points in the photo):





Player Name   Points   
  A    Lewis    66
  B    Garrett  67   
  C    Andrea   62   
  D    Bruce    69   

Date: 2022-01-04   

0.   [0;0]E:cfrf    #Wind Rose start tile         
1. A:[-1;0]W:crrf>K    #?! not take 4 points         
2. B:[1;0]W:cfrr>K=+4B         
3. C:[-1;1]W:ffrr>R         
4. D:[-2;1]S:cfff>K         
5. A:[-2;2]E:cfcf-J+>K         
6. B:[1;-1]W:frfr>R         
7. C:[0;1]E:ffrr         
8. D:[-2;0]W:cccf         
9. A:[0;-1]W:fffr^>M         
10. B:[2;0]N:cccr>K         
11. C:[-3;1]N:cfcf-S>N:K         
12. D:[0;2]W:ccrr>K    #I hate glom-across!         
13. A:[0;-2]S:cfrr>R         
14. B:[0;-3]N:crrr>K=+4B         
15. C:[-3;2]E:ccrr+         
16. D:[-4;2]S:crfr>K         
17. A:[1;-2]E:ffrr=+6A+6B    #friend!         
18. B:[1;-3]N:ffrr>F         
19. C:[-3;3]W:cccr+>K         
20. D:[-5;2]N:frfr>R         
21. A:[-3;0]W:cccr+    #risky-new city better?         
22. B:[2;-1]N:cfff         
23. C:[1;1]ffff^>M         
24. D:[-4;1]N:cfcf-J+    #foe!         
25. A:[-3;-1]W:crfr>K         
26. B:[-1;-1]W:fffr^>M         
27. C:[0;3]cccc+    #[-4;0] too risky         
28. D:[-2;-1]ffff^>M         
29. A:[3;0]W:cfff>F    #nice farm glom         
30. B:[1;-4]E:crfr>K    #[-1;3]E = savage hole!         
31. C:[-2;3]W:ccff-J+         
32. D:[-6;2]S:frrr>S:F=+5D    #big cities = bad farm?         
33. A:[3;-1]E:cfff    #no knight?!         
34. B:[2;-4]S:ccrr         
35. C:[-2;4]S:ccff-J         
36. D:[-4;0]N:ccff-J=+20D    #i thought game over!         
37. A:[4;-1]W:ccrr+>K         
38. B:[-1;-2]W:frfr>R=+9A         
39. C:[-1;-3]S:crrr>E:R=+3B+2C    #score=15-17-2-25         
40. D:[-1;2]W:cccf+    #lucky! CCCF before CFCF-S         
41. A:[-3;-2]W:frfr>R         
42. B:[-1;4]E:cfff>K    #glom, not future block?         
43. C:[-4;3]W:cfcf-S>F         
44. D:[3;-4]N:ffrr>SW:F         
45. A:[4;0]S:cfrr=+8A         
46. B:[0;4]S:ccrr         
47. C:[-3;4]E:ccff+=+16C    #nice!         
48. D:[-1;3]E:ccff-S>F    #only 3 turns left, so F         
49. A:[-4;-1]E:ccff-S>F=+4A         
50. B:[1;-5]E:frrr>R=+4B         
51. C:[-1;-4]N:crrf>K=+4C         
52. D:[2;-3]W:frrr>S:R         
53. A:[-4;-2]W:ccff-J>K         
54. B:[-3;-3]W:crrr>W:F=+4A    #nice farm grab!         
55. C:[-4;-3]E:crrf>K=+4C         
56. D:[5;-1]rrrr>NW:F    #last meeple for 3 pts?         
57. A:[-5;-2]W:cfcf-S>F=+6A         
58. B:[-3;5]W:cccf>F         
59. C:[-2;-2]ffff^>M=+9B+9D    #[-5;1]=gray gets no meeple         
60. D:[-2;-3]N:frrr>SE:F=+9C    #9B = being nice to blue :)
         


Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2022, 09:07:32 AM »
Great work kothmann! This is a very nice sheet optimized for real-time notation :(y) +1 merit

I discussed this with kothmann and some other people via PM, but I should make note of it publicly. The order in which the details about the game are ordered in the notation are a logical, esthetic and practical compromise between the many ways one can record notation. There are several different approaches and each has slightly differentpreferable order:
real-time participant (the style in which kothmann is recording games - he is simultaneously playing and recording)
real-time observer (the person writing is not playing)
writing notation off of video recording of past game (this is not real-time, but instead transcription of visually recorded game into a text form)
writing off of BGA replay, or similar feature (also not real-time, uses replay features of digital versions of Carcassonne)

The player count can also affect these things as seen in the recent post.

Kothmann's sheet is optimized for the purposes of the first two cases which makes real-time notation go even more smoothly  :) and manages to maintain the formal notation at the end. Another great addition to the toolbox!

I do have a small suggestion to add and that is another column for discarded tiles. As far as I can tell, there currently isn't a way to enter this portion of notation into the sheet. You probably did not encounter any unplacable tiles, so there was no need for it in your games.

Keep up the good work!


Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2022, 01:13:34 PM »
Yes. Discarding of card is very important to reproduce game. Maybe is possible also to check JCZ save file which contains tiles / meeples / tokens placements their positions and it's features. What is cons for JCZ save file is that not contains scoring because it uses specific random algorithm which allows to continue game in random order but by placed tiles it always gets same results.
+1 merit for me to do this not easy solution in game like Carcassonne which has a lot of tiles combinations based not only on edge types bot also on inside (image tile CFCF can have two cities with one field, one city, one city with shield, one city with trade good token (beer), one city with shield and dragon symbol, two cities with catapult and two fields, one city with bazaar, one city with monastery inside city, two cities with hill and one field, two cities with vineyard touched so two fields, two cities with one field and mage and witch symbol, two cities with two fields and crop circle, one city with robber symbol, one city with wind rose WN, one city with wind rose W).
Uff. And and this was just official C1 releases.
C2 Includes also Two cities with two fields and circus place, two cities two fields and watchtower with city bonus, and one bonus, CutCassone two cities one field and garden.

Anyway @Meepledrone still wondering how to manage C3 on WiCa? MINDOK tells that BigBox 2021 is not new BigBox, that it's only reprint of 2017 version with updated graphics and with amazing rules :D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2022, 03:59:40 PM »
Anyway @Meepledrone still wondering how to manage C3 on WiCa? MINDOK tells that BigBox 2021 is not new BigBox, that it's only reprint of 2017 version with updated graphics and with amazing rules :D

Devir said the same on their last DevirTV show on Youtube... They commented about it since there was a lot of hearsay on social networks about Carc and Big Box 3.0 :o... So these sets would be just released as updated new reprints... Nothing fancy ... No fuzz about it... And they would be followed by new reprints of the expansions following suit... There you go. >:D

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2022, 07:12:07 AM »
Quote
in game like Carcassonne which has a lot of tiles combinations based not only on edge types bot also on inside
The General Notation (project 1B) already accounts for everything you have mentioned. In other words, the tile reference is solved, it's the other things that need work. but as I mentioned, this extended notation won't be released anytime soon.

Project 2 takes priority as it is more practical and (believe it or not) even more ambitious than 1B.

Offline kothmann

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2022, 07:22:20 AM »
Project 2 takes priority as it is more practical and (believe it or not) even more ambitious than 1B.
Expected release date for P2?  We have high expectations!   :)

Offline DIN0

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Re: Project 1A: Carcassonne Game Notation
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2022, 08:07:02 AM »
Unknown. It doesn't have a well defined release date yet. There had been several previous release dates for that one, but it never quite worked out. And honestly that is for the better, because it allowed me to pack more things in :)

Alright I can give you very basic info about project 2. It is completely unrelated to Project 1A or 1B. It's completion doesn't merely depend on me finishing it, there are other factors beyond my control affecting the progress. In other words, unlike 1A and 1B, project 2 is not something I could theoretically put together in one sitting. I have to wait for certain things to transpire and to achieve few milestones before I can finish the first draft.

And another thing worth mentioning - when it comes to the "output" project 1A is static, meaning the manual and sheet has been released and that is largely it. I will of course make the promised corrected version where I implement all the errata and perhaps include few minor updates/changes, but overall the work on this one is done.
Project 1B as you know is General Notation, which by its very nature will require constant updates as the new material releases over the years.
Project 2 is similar in that regard, it too will be continually updated, so its first release won't be its final form. But there are few things it absolutely must have and that is what is currently in the works.

Hope that gives you at least a glimpse of the future.


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