Poll

When completing two or more roads connected to Leipzig and we send a meeple from one of them to the Wainwrights quarter, besides the road sending the meeple to Leipzig if it has at least 2 meeples, which other roads can get the Wainwrights quarter bonus?

A. None in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received this turn as an edge case)
2 (15.4%)
B. All other roads in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received immediately this turn)
2 (15.4%)
C. Only those scored after sending the meeple to Leipzig (scoring order is important)
8 (61.5%)
D. Another option. Please explain.
1 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Author Topic: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed  (Read 778 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« on: December 28, 2021, 05:24:21 AM »
ML06. Let’s assume multiple roads are completed and scored on the same turn a meeple on one of them is sent to the Wainwrights quarter. Which option is the correct one?
   A. Only the road with the meeple sent to Leipzig may get the Wainwrights bonus. No other road in the current turn may receive the bonus.
   B. All the roads may get the Wainwrights quarter bonus. All the roads scored in the current turn may benefit from the bonus right away, but the one sending the meeple to Leipzig has to comply with the conditions for the edge case (the road would need more than one meeple on it to score and get the bonus).
   C. It depends on the order the roads are scored:
       a. Those roads scored before the one used to send a meeple to Leipzig will not get the bonus.
       b. The road sending the meeple to Leipzig only if it complies with the edge case.
       c. The roads scored after the one sending the meeple to Leipzig will get the bonus.
   D. Another option. Please explain.


Example: Red completes two roads with the same tile and sends a meeple from one of them to the Wainwrights quarter. Can Red get the Wainwrights quarter bonus for the other road in the same turn?

Current understanding:
* We assume answer A for the time being. We assume all the bonuses are not active until the following turn (or round of scoring on a double turn). Only the edge case for the Wainwrights quarter bonus is the exception.


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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2022, 02:31:41 PM »
Some thoughts for this question:

Decoupling feature evaluation from scoring

Carcassonne does not provide proper instructions on how to score multiple features. The scoring just happens, and all features are evaluated and scored simultaneously. The Order of Play approaches the scoring by using a single loop, but you have seen that this simplified approach does not work when there are multiple dependencies between features to be resolved during scoring (mixing castles with chained dependencies and robbers can lead to funny situations).

So one thing is (A) the order of evaluation of the features, and another one is (B) how you score those points on the scoreboard:
* (A) is conditioned by the dependencies between features (for example castle dependencies), and
* (B) is chosen by players according to accomodate certain external conditions (for example minimizing the number of points scored with robbers or the teacher in mind).

In simple case, (A) and (B) can follow the same order but, in complex cases, (A) and (B) may differ. In this case you evaluate the points beforehand and then you decide how to score them.

So (B) is conditioned by certain expansions, but (A) should be unaware of those external conditions, so the result should be always the same and undisputable.

This would guarantee a predictable scoring process no matter how may expansions imposing their restrictions could be involved.

What about Markets of Leipzig?

This said, I would say that sending a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig should only affect the roads sending the meeple. Other roads evaluated in (A) before of after (by chance or due to dependencies) should not alter the result.

This is an edge case that shouldn't provoke race conditions affecting other features due to conficts players could not control, such as dependencies during evaluation.

Any thoughts?

Offline OneEyedOwl

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2022, 10:18:53 PM »
I think that all features should be scored at the same time, because they all are completed at the same time.
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Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2022, 12:09:34 AM »
It need consistency with other expansions. We know that it's possible to set order of scoring features (Castle). We know that it's decision, when one road has two meeples of same player and one is send to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig then second can score that road and het Wainwrights quarter bonus.


As there is no such as think in rules like in Watchtowers expansion, where is declarative said that "Watchtower bonus" is scored before watchtower, then we can't divide scoring sequence to two parts to send meeples to Leipzig and then scored roads get affected by it's bonus.


For consistency I prefer this:
1. Player decides order of scoring features
2. He is able to send meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig from any road in this order.
3. Each road scored but after sent meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig will get bonus.


I suppose this meets consistency of other rules in Carcassonne.

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2022, 12:18:59 AM »
And comment to other options in Poll
A. None in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received this turn as an edge case) - this meet other rules but not meet rule of two meeples on same road, one sent to Wainwrights quarter and second scoring road receiving also Wainwrights quarter bonus.

B. All other roads in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received immediately this turn) - this is con consistent with rules. Because if meeple is not in Wainwrights quarter, player cannot receive bonus (even backward) (Hmm but this can be solutions for Apps).

So solution for Apps can be: Check if there is Road scored and player has not meeple in Wainwrights quarter, give possibility to select meeple sent to Wainwrights quarter and then score other roads - this meet rule, of selected order of scoring features but app get possibility only to choose first - which get bonus. Other situation is that by placing of road can score also opposite player and he has meeple in Wainwrights quarter but after some meeple "Castling" in order of scoring he will loose that majority... but this is to other thread.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2022, 12:57:35 AM »
I think that all features should be scored at the same time, because they all are completed at the same time.

This should be the default situation, but this cannot be always the case if you involve robbers, the teacher or batthouses. Scorings have to be done in a given order so players decide what points are stolen by robbers on the scoreboard or recieved by the teacher, or the meeples going to empty bathhouses.

So my point is that there are two processes happening that may need to be decoupled: evaluating features/figures (deciding the points to be scored by each player, even in considering multiple scoring events) and the actual scoring (the sequence those scoring events are noted on the scoreboard).

Why? Because in a worst case scenario a dingle loop for evaluation and scoring cannot satidfy all the constraints.

Check this case from the Advent Quiz 2020:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4911.msg73207#msg73207



The order of evaluation could be:
>> Option A:
1. City occupied by Red, worth 6 points.
2. Road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.
3. Castle occupied by Red, triggered by road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.

>> Option B:
1. Road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.
2. Castle occupied by Red, triggered by road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.
3. City occupied by Red, worth 6 points.

In order to minimize the number of points stolen from Red, the player should score 3 points for the castle first and then 6 points for the city with the same meeple, with the same scoring figure: the meeple or the messager. This way, the yellow robber will only steal the first scoring noted and will be removed at that point.

So, as you can see, evaluations follow an order (or can happen simultaneously, as you mention, when possible) but scorings may require a sequence that may not follow the evaluation order.

So if both processes can be decoupled (when required at least), you will be able to handle complex cases without running into trouble. No matter how you evaluate, you should be always get a predictible result: in control of the scoring and free from any constraints imposed by the evaluation dependencies or the scoring sequencing.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2022, 01:24:08 AM »
It need consistency with other expansions. We know that it's possible to set order of scoring features (Castle). We know that it's decision, when one road has two meeples of same player and one is send to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig then second can score that road and het Wainwrights quarter bonus.


As there is no such as think in rules like in Watchtowers expansion, where is declarative said that "Watchtower bonus" is scored before watchtower, then we can't divide scoring sequence to two parts to send meeples to Leipzig and then scored roads get affected by it's bonus.


For consistency I prefer this:
1. Player decides order of scoring features
2. He is able to send meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig from any road in this order.
3. Each road scored but after sent meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig will get bonus.


I suppose this meets consistency of other rules in Carcassonne.

Think the whole thing this way: Leipzig bonuses are only available on the next turn (or next scoring round to be more precise with messages or double turns). The only edge case commented in the rules is the road sending the meeple to the Wainrights quarter which would benefit from the bonus on the same tuen if the player has more than one meeple.

I wouldn't try to make it extensive to other roads scored on the same turn by the player. As seen above you would run into an issue: what roads are entitled to the bonus? Those evaluated after the road sending the meeple to Leipzig or those scored after the one sending the meeple? Remember there may be a mismatch between both sequences due to various contraints as commented earlier...

The strategy here would be all or nothing to avoid race conditions:
* All the roads get the Wainwrights quarter bonus if the meeple is in Leipzing at the begining of the turn (or turn part for double turns)
* No road gets the Wainwrights quarter bonus if the meeple is sent to Leipzing this turn (or turn part for double turns) except for the road sending a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter if the player has more than one meeple on it.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 01:42:46 AM »
And comment to other options in Poll
A. None in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received this turn as an edge case) - this meet other rules but not meet rule of two meeples on same road, one sent to Wainwrights quarter and second scoring road receiving also Wainwrights quarter bonus.

On the contrary, this option meets the rules and considers the edge case with more than one meeple on the road sending the meeple to the Wainwrights quarter. This is the all or nothin approach a commented in my previous post including the edge case.

B. All other roads in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received immediately this turn) - this is con consistent with rules. Because if meeple is not in Wainwrights quarter, player cannot receive bonus (even backward) (Hmm but this can be solutions for Apps).

I agree. I don0t like this option because all roads benefit in advance, so to speak, of the bonus. It is too generous.

So solution for Apps can be: Check if there is Road scored and player has not meeple in Wainwrights quarter, give possibility to select meeple sent to Wainwrights quarter and then score other roads - this meet rule, of selected order of scoring features but app get possibility only to choose first - which get bonus. Other situation is that by placing of road can score also opposite player and he has meeple in Wainwrights quarter but after some meeple "Castling" in order of scoring he will loose that majority... but this is to other thread.

The order I would apply would be as follows:
- If player scoring for roads connected to Leipzig should be allowed to send a meeple per road to Leipzig if there are quarters not occupied by the played yet.
- The player may select any road and decide the target quarter (this should be allowed to be done and undone, since you may change your mind)
- Once all the decisions are made, only the road sending a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter gets the bonus on the same turn if it has more than one meeple.
- The roads sending meeples to Leipzig with one meeple are worth 0 points for the feature itself (feature-level bonuses are also discarded: German castles, for example), but may trigger bonuses as usual: fairy, watchtowers,...  This means, the road is evaluated (a castle can score for it) but the player on the road receives no points for it.
- Any Leipzig bonus corresponding to meeples placed in previous turns are applied.
- The meeples added to Leipzig this turn are "committed" and will be effective next turn.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 03:24:41 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2022, 03:12:25 PM »
ML06
Quote from: Meepldrone
Let’s assume multiple roads are completed and scored on the same turn a meeple on one of them is
sent to the Wainwrights quarter. Which option is the correct one?

Quote
A. Only the road with the meeple sent to Leipzig may get the Wainwrights bonus. No other road in the current turn may receive the bonus.
No, it is wrong.

Quote
B. All the roads may get the Wainwrights quarter bonus. All the roads scored in the current turn may benefit from the bonus right away, but the one sending the meeple to Leipzig has to comply with the conditions for the edge case (the road would need more than one meeple on it to score and get the bonus).
example I: 2 just finished roads - road1 with 2 meeples - road2 with 1 meeple - all meeples belongs to one player.

Yes, but only when the player send a meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from that road (road1) where he has two meeples onto it. Then he will score both roads and gets bonus points for both roads.
 
No, if the player send the only meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from the other road (road2) where he has only that one meeple onto it.
Then the player will get only for the road (road1) with 2 meeples onto it the score points and the bonus points. The player can't get any score or bonus points for the road2

example II: 2 just finished roads - road1 with 2 red meeples and one blue big meeple - road2 with 1 red meeple

No, when the red player send a meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from that road (road1) where he has two meeples onto it, then he loses his majority on that road and gets no points for road1 also no bonus points. The red player scores the road2 and gets bonus points.
The blue player has the majority of that road1 - he scores the road1 and gets bonus points if he already has a blue meeple on the Wainwringhts quarter.

No, if the red player send the only meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from the other road (road2) where he has only that one meeple onto it.
Then the red player will get only for the road (road1) with 2 meeples onto it the score points and the bonus points. The red player can't get any score or bonus points for the road2.
The blue player has togehter with the red player the majority of that road1 - he scores the road1 and gets bonus points if he already has a blue meeple on the Wainwringhts quarter.

For the next part I will open a new reply
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 04:14:16 PM by kettlefish »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2022, 04:32:41 PM »
Quote
C. It depends on the order the roads are scored:
yes. And the score of the just finished roads take place after all players (who have meeples onto these just finished roads) decided if they send a meeple to Leipzig.

Quote
a. Those roads scored before the one used to send a meeple to Leipzig will not get the bonus.
No
Quote
b. The road sending the meeple to Leipzig only if it complies with the edge case.
I do not understand this - do you mean the special case when the player has 2 meeples on the just finished road?
Quote
c. The roads scored after the one sending the meeple to Leipzig will get the bonus.
This is also not clear enough. Yes, the score of the roads take place after the sending of the meeple to Leipzig.
-------------------------------------
Here are some more examples:

example  III: You finished 2 roads with the just placed tile. On each road you have one meeple. You decide not to score one road and send this meeple to the Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. For this road you can't get points for score and no bonus. Than you score the other just finished road. For this road you get the score and the 1 piont bonus for each tile of that road.

example IV: The same as example III, but you have two meeples onto one of the roads. If you decide not to score this road with two meeples onto it, than you can send one of these meeples to the Wainwrights quarter. Than you look to your just finished roads. The one road has still the 2nd meeple there - score the road and get the bonus for it. The same is for the other just finished road with a meeple on it - score and get the bonus points for it.



Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2022, 04:40:03 PM »
The common interpretation of the rules assumes that when sending a meeple to Leipzig, the majority is coumputed before sending a meeple to Leipzig and it is not recalculated.

Please check this discussion here, lead by Just a Bill, that we used as a reference for some clarifications about The Markets of Leipzig:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3621.0

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2022, 05:06:47 PM »
I am right - not the "we can assume here..."

I've read that topic .  Just a Bill did make some mistakes. I will clear that up. But that needs some time.

First of all - you have to look at the majority of the road when the score takes place. And the score takes place after the player decided if they send a meeple to Leipzig.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 05:22:15 PM by kettlefish »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2022, 05:20:22 PM »
Ha ha ha! This is an important change then! :o

So, this means that:

1) On completed roads connected to Leipzig, those players with the majority may send a meeple at the beginning of 3. Scoring a feature to establish the new configuration of Leipzig bonused for this turn.

2) After that, you reevaluate the majority and perform the scoring as usual, but considering the new situation in Leipzig for any bonuses to be granted.

With our previous assumptions, a meeple on a road connected to Leipzig with the fairy assigned to it, could get the fairy bonus before going to Leipzig, that is, meeples where sent to Leipzig after scoring (so the bonus was effective the next turn).

With this update, it seems that meeples are sent to Leipzig before the scoring actually starts (although the majority is computed twice), so the Leipzig bonus effect is immediate. If so, there is no edge case... Roads with one meeple cannot score any points for the road or the Wainwrights quarter bonus when sending that meeple to Leipzig because there is no meeple left to score the road.

Does this make sense?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 05:43:39 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2022, 05:43:28 PM »
Ha ha ha! This is an impotant change then! :o
Yes.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The rule in German:
Hast Du mehrere Meeple auf einer Straße, darfst du nur einen davon nach Leipzig schicken.
Für den anderen Meeple darfst du aber die Punkte für die Straße nehmen.
Schickst du dabei den Meeple ins Wagner-Viertel, bekommst du gleich die Extra-Punkte (siehe unten).

The rule in English:
If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send only one of them to Leipzig.
For the other(s) you may, however, score the points for the road.
if you send a meeple into the wainwrights quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.

Example:
You have 2 meeples (meeple1 and meeple2) on the just finished road. You have on the just finished road the meeple power 2 (2x1) at this moment. Then you decide to send meeple1 to Leipzig into the wainwrights quarter. And now for the remaining meeple2 you score the road (meeple power 1x1) and get the bonus points.

Just a Bill has only translated the last sentense from this part of the rule and he didn't talk about the first two sentences.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 05:45:16 PM by kettlefish »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2022, 06:07:23 PM »
The paragraph you quote seems to be full of gaps, that readers may fill in to their better understaning, leading to diverse interpretations:

The rule in English:
If you have more than one meeple on the road you are allowed to send only one of them to Leipzig.

OK. No issues.

For the other(s) you may, however, score the points for the road.

This sentence can be interpreted as: if you still have meeples left on the road [after sending one meeple to Leipzig], you still score the points for the road. This use of "may" conveys a meaning that the points are not lost. You still score them without recomputing the majority.

If the sentence was "For the other(s) you, however, score the points for the road.", it would indicate that you should score the road by recalculating the majority... It would miss some extra wording indicating that you do so "[...] if you stlll have the majority."

if you send a meeple into the wainwrights quarter you will get the bonus points (see below) immediately.

This "immediately" is the only reference to timing. Based on this, the sentence could be interpreted as a special case, where the you only get the bonus for your road if it has two meeples (or more) and one goes to the Wainwrights quarter. All other cases (meeples sent to other quarters) don't get the bonus "immediately."

This is the issue with this expansion, since this wording so open to multiple readings. These two last sentences may cover may variants departing from the intended rules.


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