Poll

Should crossroads with trees be treated the same as crossroads with villages in order to send a meeple to Leipzig?

Yes, the requirement about crossroads with villages is arbitrary (just based on the tile distribution in the C2 base game)
7 (41.2%)
No, the requirement about crossroads with villages is not arbitrary (moreover, it is shared with other expansions such as The Toolkeepers)
10 (58.8%)
Another option (please explain)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees  (Read 1363 times)

Offline Snearone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2021, 04:20:52 AM »
For me it should be based on wagon C1 movement but for roads only. No problem with multiple jumps from road to road to road, with trees or small cottage blocking them. But if there is cloister or similar claimable feature in a way other than road , it's no good.
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2021, 04:28:43 AM »
Ha ha ha! Are you going to use C1 wagon criteria as a reference for a C2 expansion that ignores C1 altogether? :o
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Offline Snearone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2021, 05:08:32 AM »
Ha ha ha! Are you going to use C1 wagon criteria as a reference for a C2 expansion that ignores C1 altogether? :o

If you put it that way, but it could be it's own road-to-road Leipzig criteria :D

Offline carlium

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2021, 05:09:47 AM »
It seems that the merchants going to Leipzig need to go through villages to buy and sell new goods and have some rest... If they go through roads connected by trees, they may be robbed and have little rest when camping under the sky. ???

Hahaha, this post made me change my opinion and vote!  ;D

Good job Meepledrone! I like these "thematic" rules, very easy to explain.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 05:12:30 AM by carlium »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2021, 05:29:31 AM »
I think answers in this poll are very "juristical".

"Should be a meeple send to Leipzig over road junction or over cotage (like over village with crossroads)?"
Answers: Yes & No
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Offline MetalGearHorus

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2021, 09:58:20 AM »
It seems that the merchants going to Leipzig need to go through villages to buy and sell new goods and have some rest... If they go through roads connected by trees, they may be robbed and have little rest when camping under the sky. ???
That's my headcanon for it. We are a C2 household and we play rules as written for Markets of Leipzig and Tollkeepers - Villages only.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2021, 12:27:51 PM »
Hmm. Tollkeepers are different thing. That toll keeper placement to village have sense.
But not allow to go meeple to Leipzig over tree road junction has no sense.

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Offline kettlefish

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2022, 02:27:13 PM »
ML02
Quote from: Meepledrone
When sending a meeple to Leipzig, a meeple has to be on a road connected to Leipzig via villages. If
any crossroads is occupied by trees instead, the connection is not possible and the meeple will not be
allowed to be sent to Leipzig.

I agree with you - the crossing with trees isn't a village. - That means no Leipzig bonus and no meeple goes to Leipzig.

But I will contact someone who was working onto this expansion.

I decide not to vote yet.

In this topic are some more examples - that is a bit confusing me.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 02:35:10 PM by kettlefish »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2022, 02:39:49 PM »
What examples do you find confusing?

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2022, 03:23:55 PM »
What examples do you find confusing?
When I see the gold nuggets - that has nothing to do with the Markets of Leipzig.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2022, 04:04:44 PM »
The goldmines example image was just to illustrate that HiG had replicated the tile distribution of the C1 base game for C2 initially, but in the end they removed any junctions with trees in the base game. The only case present was the CRRR tiles.

The goldmines image below includes a CRRR tile from the base game that doesn't exist in C2 (a work-in-progress version?). It actually shows an open junction, which already posed an issue in C1. See the tile on the right with the Red Meeple:


Here is the original design of the CRRR tile in C1 Base game:



Here is the final design of the CRRR tile in C2 Base game:



All this was just to add some additional info to the discussion about villages for the Markets of Leipzig. When combining Markets of Leipzig with the C1 base game, you have 3 crossroads with villages less than when playing with the C2 base game.

In any case, this design change was intentional, and so must be the explicit reference to crossroads with villages in The Markets of Leipzig and The Tollkeepers (if I may). Villages mark the crossroads associated to their mechanics.

Offline DIN0

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2022, 04:54:23 PM »
Honestly to me, the wording of the rules for both Markets of Leipzig and Tollkeepers are clearly trying to convey the difference between "normal featureless crossroads" and a "feature ending multiple roads". They make it clear that connection via non-feature road terminations is the adequate one, instead of connection via a real feature which terminates road thus creating a crossroad. They even linger on this distinction:
Quote
You may only place your tollhouse on top of crossroads. A crossroad is a village with 2-4 roads. A city or monastery with two or more roads doesn't count as a crossroad.
 

It is only circumstantial that the C2 base uses village illustrations as their only visual road-exclusive road terminator.
This is even more apparent when we remind ourselves that all of the C2 expansions are designed only with base game in mind, so any further artistic depictions of featurless crossroads probably didn't even cross the designer's minds, because the only point of reference for a featureless crossroads in base game are the ones with a village. Also one would think if this "village" was a dedicated and distinct small illustration, they would include it in the list of small illustartions along with gardens, farmhouses, sheds, highwaymen and (still unused) watertowers...

The best way to think about this is like a C1 wagon. Any crossroad a C1 wagon would be able to move through also serves as a connection to Leipzig and also should be viable for tollhouse placement.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2022, 05:11:03 PM »
C2 does things that would prevent a C1 wagon from moving. For example, this juction with a festival would not allow a C1 wagon to cross over, since it triggers a function:



The same tile in C1 had a junction with trees:




Check the following clarifications:
Quote
The wagon cannot drive through any feature to get to another feature. Features are any aspect of the tile that can be claimed by a follower or that triggers a function, including cloisters, bazaars, crop circles, fairs, etc. [Note: this represents a reversal of a previous clarification. Previously, unclaimable structures such as fairs were not considered features and could be driven through to a road on the other side.] (5/2013)

So this analogy would not serve as a reference either.

Offline DIN0

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2022, 05:30:58 PM »
Wether or not the C2 Festival shift from trees to festival tents constitutes a feature is a different topic altogether. If we assume those tents are indeed non-passable by C1 wagon, this does not discredit the analogy. If it is a feature and wagon cannot pass it, then it isn't a village either and the connection to Leipzig is severed. So the analogy works.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 10:21:33 AM by DIN0 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2022, 08:30:19 AM »
So far, they only way to explore this with HiG is to ask them what happens with the roads connected to Leipzig via CRRR tiles from the C1 base game. This way they cannot say this is an interaction with other expansions.

You can appeal to the lower probability to connect a road to Leipzig in the C1 base game, but who knows the outcome and who knows the possibility of extending their answer to other expansions.


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