Poll

Should crossroads with trees be treated the same as crossroads with villages in order to send a meeple to Leipzig?

Yes, the requirement about crossroads with villages is arbitrary (just based on the tile distribution in the C2 base game)
7 (41.2%)
No, the requirement about crossroads with villages is not arbitrary (moreover, it is shared with other expansions such as The Toolkeepers)
10 (58.8%)
Another option (please explain)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees  (Read 1362 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« on: December 11, 2021, 10:01:50 AM »
ML02. When sending a meeple to Leipzig, a meeple has to be on a road connected to Leipzig via villages. If any crossroads is occupied by trees instead, the connection is not possible and the meeple will not be allowed to be sent to Leipzig.


Example: The meeple on the road connected to Leipzig via a crossroads with trees cannot be sent to Leipzig.
 
Current understanding:
* The rules require villages so trees or any other feature (monasteries, castles, crop circles, the Bogatyr stone, bazaars, festival fairs…) on a crossroads will not be allowed.

Proposals:
* Comunity Rule clarifying this case


Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5601.0
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline wolnic

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2021, 01:39:33 PM »
What about the two tiles in Hills and Sheep that feature a couple of buildings splitting the road? Could be regarded as a hamlet, rather than a village.

If we're being pedantic a 3-way junction is not a "crossroads" ...  ;)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 01:41:30 PM by wolnic »
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Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2021, 03:03:55 PM »
I don't like this.original rules. Count of villages on whole Carc is very small. Power of this mini is then very small. :(
I preffer Variant that meeple can go to Leipzig if multiple wagon moves by C1 rules allow that.
Like from road to road (over tower), road to monastery then monastery to road (RR tile with monastery on center of tile), road to city and city to road.
This is called advanced variant.

Basic variant is only road-road. So if two roads are connected by any of list, meeple can go to Leipzig.
1. Village
2. Monastery
3. Trees on junction
4. Tower foundation
5. Acrobats place
6. Circus space
7. Bazaar
8. Fruit tree
9. Watchtower
10. German Cathedral
11. Small house on road

Anyway. Junction has to be allowed. Those roads are connected.
Also road road with small house divided road to two.

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2021, 03:49:21 PM »
What about the two tiles in Hills and Sheep that feature a couple of buildings splitting the road? Could be regarded as a hamlet, rather than a village.

If we're being pedantic a 3-way junction is not a "crossroads" ...  ;)

Above I was using the term "crossroads" somewhat loosely. I maybe should have called it junction with trees.

The Toolkeepers provides a very precise definition of what a crossroads is supposed to be for the game (these would be the only junctions connecting roads allowed to place a tollhouse on and to send a meeple to Leipzig as per the rules too):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tollkeepers#2._Placing_a_meeple

Quote
You may only place your tollhouse on top of crossroads. A crossroad is a village with 2-4 roads. A city or monastery with two or more roads doesn't count as a crossroad.



C1 versions of 3-road and 4-road crossroads:


So the key element is a village ending 2 to 4 roads. The base game only includes crossroads with 3 or 4 roads.

As you mention, Exp. 9 also features two roads ending at a "cottage" (or a "hamlet" as you called it) which is neither a full-blown village nor the usual standalone yellow-roofed farmhouse (C2 can be more confusing for its larger illustration but C1 shows a tiny cottage)




...or a cottage ending a road as well (a similar example can also be found in Exp. 5):


Is this C1 cottage promoted to a hamlet in C2? (Note: I used the term "road cottage" in the Tile Reference to address these features, different from the C1 standalone "farm cottage" and the C2 yellow-roofed farmhouse)

In this case, like some other the C1 version of the tiles makes the distinction clearer to my eyes.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2021, 03:55:15 PM »
I don't like this.original rules. Count of villages on whole Carc is very small. Power of this mini is then very small. :(
I preffer Variant that meeple can go to Leipzig if multiple wagon moves by C1 rules allow that.
Like from road to road (over tower), road to monastery then monastery to road (RR tile with monastery on center of tile), road to city and city to road.
This is called advanced variant.

Basic variant is only road-road. So if two roads are connected by any of list, meeple can go to Leipzig.
1. Village
2. Monastery
3. Trees on junction
4. Tower foundation
5. Acrobats place
6. Circus space
7. Bazaar
8. Fruit tree
9. Watchtower
10. German Cathedral
11. Small house on road

Anyway. Junction has to be allowed. Those roads are connected.
Also road road with small house divided road to two.

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This would defeat the intent of the rules for the wagon and Markets of Leipzig if you open this much the range of features allowed. HiG was discarding roads connected to any feature that could be claimed and scored or would trigger an action... until they broke their own rules with the addition of tollhouses (an edge case).

Offline DIN0

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2021, 02:24:45 AM »
Of course it's arbitrary - every single expansion in C2 has the clause about "being designed for base game only".

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2021, 02:38:29 AM »
HiG wants to make more money with expansions but doesn't want to assume the responsibility that this implies in expanding the rules of Carcassonne's universe... It isn't fair for the Carcassonne game itself that deserves seriousness and coherence as it should ... But this already seems somewhat frivolous and it takes away prestige on the ludic's world...
Clipped buildings.

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2021, 02:40:53 AM »
Except large expansions. They have part with interactions with other large expansions.
Also HiG solve clarifications ofly for base game, expansion - base game and large expansion - large expansion questions.
All questions with interaction between any mini expansion with another expansions (large or mini) are anwered by their prime directive.
But maybe in C3 situation will be changed. How know :)

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Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2021, 02:50:38 AM »
Except large expansions. They have part with interactions with other large expansions.
Also HiG solve clarifications ofly for base game, expansion - base game and large expansion - large expansion questions.
All questions with interaction between any mini expansion with another expansions (large or mini) are anwered by their prime directive.
But maybe in C3 situation will be changed. How know :)

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Anyway it's sad... I vote to create a crowfunding to send Meepledrone to HiG and fix all the mess that they create... Who is joining?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2021, 03:43:03 AM »
We all know and suffer from this. The aim here is to discuss what would seem most appropriate in these undefined cases.

So getting back to business:
* In a C2 base game you have 8 junctions with villages and none with trees. This is the target for Markets of Leipzig.
* In a C1 base game you have 5 junctions with villages and 3 with trees. This is not the target for Markets of Leipzig, since the Tanners quarter bonus, for example, relies on symbols that do not exist in C1 tiles (i.e. sheds) and farmhouses that may compare to those tiny farm cottages (the compatibility issue is covered in a different question).

The point here is if we should treat junctions with trees equivalent to junctions with villages (I'm avoiding the use of the word crossroads ;)) for Markets of Leipzig and making a coherent decision keeping an eye on Th Tollkeepers:
* Pros:
   * C1 compatibility: The C1 base game distribution would be equivalent and provide the same number of junctions (with and without villages).
   * C1 and C2 road adjacency: Junctions with trees do not pose a connectivity issue for roads, since there is not feature in between.
* Cons:
   * C2 rules demand villages: The Market of Leipzig rules require villages at junctions.
   * C2 relevance of villages: The Tollkeepers have turned villages into a claimable feature for tollhouses. Would it be thematically coherent to place a tollhouse on a junction with trees the same as on a junction with a village? 
   * C2 graphic decisions affecting the tile distribution: At a certain point, HiG discarded junctions with trees from the base game (check the CRRR tile with the red meeple bottom right, which was included by mistake in this Mini #4 - The Goldmines example). It would have reopened the open junction issue.
     
      Please compare it to this junction with trees included in Exp. 3 - The Princess & the Dragon:
     

I acknowledge all these issues but currently I'm inclined to consider only villages for Markets of Leipzig and The Tollkeepers. It is clear to me that HiG didn't care about the lack of backwards compatibility, so twisting the C2-only rules to make room for full-blown C1 compatibility can become awkward... Nevertheless, we can provide a Community Rule to provide a certain degree of compatibility on a separate discussion.

In this case, it is a matter of thematic integrity vs. tile distribution.

What do you think?

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2021, 01:58:48 AM »
Hmm, back to junction. I suppose, that that "village" is used to purpose, that road end and there is space between them.
It's pitty that we "can't" ask HiG this because in Carc 2.0 and Carc 3.0 and Carc20Years is not junction tile :(

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2021, 10:21:33 AM »
It seems this topic is a controversial one...  >:D

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2021, 11:27:49 AM »
Haha, anyway I can imagine, that from now, HiG will only answer question about Carc 3.0 :D

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2021, 03:44:48 AM »
Mmm maybe could be an alternative rules for C1 and change a little bit the name calling ‘markets of (another village)’…


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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Markets of Leipzig - Crossroads with trees
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2021, 04:08:55 AM »
It seems that the merchants going to Leipzig need to go through villages to buy and sell new goods and have some rest... If they go through roads connected by trees, they may be robbed and have little rest when camping under the sky. ???


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