Author Topic: Clarification about Abbots  (Read 182 times)

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Clarification about Abbots
« on: December 05, 2021, 04:03:23 AM »
I am a little confused about the Abbot rules.

In footnote 14 of the Abbot rules is stated:

[14]  You can only score the abbot placed on a monastery or a garden before the feature is completely surrounded by tiles. In this case, you always score the abbot (on the feature), never the feature itself. (11/2020)

So, this footnote states that you cannot score a completed monastery in phase 2.


However, in footnote 8 of New Edition Exp. 9 Hills and Sheeps is written:
[8]  If an abbot is removed from a completed monastery in phase 2. Placing a meeple, it will not get points for any adjacent vineyards, since the feature is not scored in phase 3. Scoring a feature when vineyards are applied.

So, this implies that you can score an Abbot already in phase 2 even if the monastery is completed, e.g. to protect him from the Dragon or Pest.

What is correct?



Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5578.0

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Clarification about Abbots
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2021, 04:54:21 AM »
Dragon movement rules is currently on review by HiG. I suppose, they are releasing 3.0 next year, so there will be explained this if Abbot is or not protected in this case.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification about Abbots
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2021, 04:01:07 PM »
I am a little confused about the Abbot rules.

In footnote 14 of the Abbot rules is stated:

[14]  You can only score the abbot placed on a monastery or a garden before the feature is completely surrounded by tiles. In this case, you always score the abbot (on the feature), never the feature itself. (11/2020)

So, this footnote states that you cannot score a completed monastery in phase 2.

This is correct.

Abbots can only be removed and scored if placed on an incomplete garden or monastery. This was clarified in 11/2020 by Andreas Kramer (HiG).

https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4927.msg72665#msg72665

However, in footnote 8 of New Edition Exp. 9 Hills and Sheeps is written:
[8]  If an abbot is removed from a completed monastery in phase 2. Placing a meeple, it will not get points for any adjacent vineyards, since the feature is not scored in phase 3. Scoring a feature when vineyards are applied.

So, this implies that you can score an Abbot already in phase 2 even if the monastery is completed, e.g. to protect him from the Dragon or Pest.

What is correct?

This clarification is obsolete. This came from moment that the interpretation of the rules lead to this possibility. It should have ben updated back in the day but it fell through the cracks.  :'(

The correct wording according to the previous clarifications should be as follows (now updated on WICA):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Hills_%26_Sheep#cite_note-8
Quote
If an abbot is removed from an uncompleted monastery in phase 2. Placing a meeple, it will not get points for any adjacent vineyards. Since you are scoring the meeple and not the feature, vineyards do not apply in this case.

As Bumsakalaka said, there are some clarifications affecting the abbot still in the air. This is the case of the sequence affecting the dragon movement and the scoring of abbot (or any other events triggering a scoring in 2. Placing a meeple. We have the following pieces of information, but not an end-to-end clarifications:
* The abbot is not scored immediately in 2. Placing a meeple as initially clarified in 3/2015. We got some answers about this and what the German or the English rules indicated, but not a clear answer about what the rules should say.
* Later, the 20th Anniversary Edition rules state that the abbot is removed in 2. Placing a meeple but scored in 3.  Scoring a feature (the German rules even state that all other features are scored after the abbot).
* We also showed HiG in 1/2021 that:
   - The step with the dragon movement is not correctly numbered in the Exp. 3 rules (Step 1b instead of Step 2b).
   - The rules for the scoring of the shepherd and the acrobat pyramids show similar issues and lack of clarity
   The only response we got is that thy will have to review the rules. I sent additional questions about this but no answer yet since.

If we put the pieces together, the sequence seems to be as follows:
* You decide to trigger a scoring in 2. Placing a meeple instead of placing a meeple or any other action. No scoring happens at this point (confirmed - no scoring happens in this phase).
* The abbot (or the acrobats, or the fruit tokens or the shepherd) are removed right away (assumed - it would be odd that you decide to score your acrobats and then you lose them to the dragon once the decision is made).
* You move your dragon before scoring as usual
* You score the points for events  triggered in 2. Placing a meeple (confirmed for the abbot -clearly in the German rules-, assumed for the rest.... Is this happening in Step 3A?)
* After scoring  the usual feature scoring takes place. (confirmed for the abbot -clearly in the German rules-, assumed for the rest.... This is Step 3B)

Additional questions were sent to HiG to confirm that the abbot applies only to feature scorings (Step 3B) and should not apply to figure scorings triggered in 2. Placing a meeple (abbot, acrobats). This would be consistent with acrobats or abbots not triggering the scoring of castles.

So as you can see, one simple question sent to HiG in 2020 about the abbot has generated a chain reaction affecting the abbot, the dragon, the turn sequence, messages, robbers and even sending a meeple to Carcassonne. I know this has been a extremely busy year for HiG, but all these questions need a consistent answers. I hope they can deliver soon.

In the meantime, I've been updating WICA with all the clarifications, but The Abbot (expansion page and reference pages) have been on hold trying to get a validation of the sequence above.

HiG accepts that there are scorings in 1. Placing a tile, but the are adamant stating that no scorings take place in 2. Placing a meeple... what is generating a lot of issues starting with the dragon.
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com


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