Author Topic: Wheel of Fortune and religious figures query (Read 2709 times)

Allograft · « **on:** March 27, 2021, 06:16:22 PM »

I know that the Inquisition on Wheel of Fortune scores for monks, but not for heretics.

Question, what about Archbishops on German Cathedrals and, by extension, Abbots on gardens? I know that Abbots are C2 and Wheel of Fortune is C1, but I figure that the rules of Archbishops can be extended to Abbots? -

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5153.0

corinthiens13 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2021, 10:22:22 PM »

Points are awarded depending on the role of the follower (monk), not depending on the feature he's on.

That's any meeple placed as a monk on an abbey, monastery, Darmstadt church, German monastery, Japanese building, Monastery from the Netherlands and Belgium, including an abbot placed there as a monk.

But an abbot on a garden is not a monk so it isn't counted. And any meeple placed on a shrine, on a German Cathedral, or placed as an abbot on a special monastery are not monks either, so not counted (I'm not sure the debate was closed about meeples placed as abbots on a special monastery though)

And that's a terrible mess with ecclesiastical ranks... As Meepledrone once said, in Carcassonne, we may see:

- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed on an abbey
- An abbot meeple placed as a monk on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a heretic role placed on a shrine
- An abbot meeple with an abbot role placed on a garden

Allograft · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2021, 11:53:08 PM »

Excellent! Merit awarded! -

corinthiens13 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2021, 01:26:29 AM »

Thanks

Meepledrone · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2021, 02:09:51 AM »

If you check this clarification (original text in German, see translation below), it indicates that meeples placed as abbots on a German monastery are still considered monks. This would also apply to other special monasteries such as Dutch & Belgian monasteries or Japanese buildings.
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971

Here you are the translation into English:

Quote

Since the rule for the flier is older, as is known, we did not know that one day a follower could also be placed as an abbot on the monastery (German monastery). So even if in the rule would have said "monk", this would not exclude the "abbot" on the German monastery. Thus, the flier can choose to land as Monk or Abbot on the German Monastery."

Conclusion: if the rule of an older extension speaks only of monk, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery.

The same approach for the Flying Machines should be applied to The Wheel of Fortune. So the Inquisition on the Wheel of Fortune would consider all monks (no matter their position as a monk or as an abbot) and any monastic building but shrines:
* Normal monasteries
* Abbeys
* German monasteries
* Dutch & Belgian monasteries
* Japanese buildings
* Darmstadt churches

So role (monk) is one thing and position (as a monk or as an abbot) is another... (Don't ask me about protected monks also indicated by their position: by lying them down - I asked HiG how to place a protected monk placed as an abbot and the answer was: "you'll have to agree/find a way to do it."

). But I'm digressing here...

As corintiens13 mentioned, this rules outs meeples on other ecclesiastical features such as gardens, shrines and German cathedrals.

Quote from: corinthiens13 on March 27, 2021, 10:22:22 PM

- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed on an abbey
- An abbot meeple placed as a monk on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a heretic role placed on a shrine
- An abbot meeple with an abbot role placed on a garden

Carcassonne tongue twisters are awesome, right?

corinthiens13 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 28, 2021, 02:27:58 AM »

Quote from: Meepledrone on March 28, 2021, 02:09:51 AM

If you check this clarification (original text in German, see translation below), it indicates that meeples placed as abbots on a German monastery are still considered monks. This would also apply to other special monasteries such as Dutch & Belgian monasteries or Japanese buildings.
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=781.msg9971#msg9971

Here you are the translation into English:
Quote
Since the rule for the flier is older, as is known, we did not know that one day a follower could also be placed as an abbot on the monastery (German monastery). So even if in the rule would have said "monk", this would not exclude the "abbot" on the German monastery. Thus, the flier can choose to land as Monk or Abbot on the German Monastery."

Conclusion: if the rule of an older extension speaks only of monk, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery.

Yeah... That's why I said the debate about this may still be open...

This interpretation seems really unlogical to me !

Acrobats didn't exist when WoF was released, so why not count acrobats too?

Monk is a role, abbot on a monastery is another. Rule is so simple, 2 points per monk, no ambiguity, why then separate role and position to make a rule strange, difficult to understand...etc?

Heretic was the only possible role other than monk on a feature with cloister mechanic back then. So, by the same interpretation you mentioned, we may conclude:
If the rule of an older expansion speaks only of heretic, that does not exclude the abbot on the German monastery (so if heretic role isnn't counted, abbot role neither)

Meepledrone · « **Reply #6 on:** March 28, 2021, 02:40:07 AM »

We can ask HiG about this. My feeling is that anything can happen.

corinthiens13 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 28, 2021, 02:47:13 AM »

We can, not sure they'll answer though

DIN0 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2021, 03:35:50 AM »

Gradens yes, but not German Cathedrals. In simpler words Inquisition scores for every meeple named Monk, which excludes Heretics and Archbishops.

Quote

- An abbot meeple with a monk role placed on an abbey
- An abbot meeple placed as a monk on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple placed as an abbot on a German monastery
- An abbot meeple with a heretic role placed on a shrine
- An abbot meeple with an abbot role placed on a garden

Yeah that is true, not to mention distinction of Normal Meeple in role of Abbot vs Abbot Meeple in role of Monk (not Abbot)

corinthiens13 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2021, 04:57:34 AM »

Quote from: DIN0 on March 28, 2021, 03:35:50 AM

Gradens yes, but not German Cathedrals. In simpler words Inquisition scores for every meeple named Monk, which excludes Heretics and Archbishops.

Gardens??? We're not sure about meeples placed as abbots on special monasteries, but abbots on gardens are for sure not counted

They're not monks, and they're not on a monastic building!

DIN0 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2021, 06:06:03 AM »

I know they are not monastic buildings, but since Abbots are placed there "instead of into a monastic building", is their designation not a monk? If not, then what is it?

corinthiens13 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 28, 2021, 06:30:53 AM »

It's an abbot

DIN0 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 28, 2021, 06:35:11 AM »

But Abbot, in that case, is a meeple type, not a "job". I am asking for the job, which (I believe) should be Monk. A normal meeple (or even Abbot meeple) in an Abbey is also a Monk, not an abbot by "job". Since Garden functions as an Abbot meeple exclusive cloister, the job of the Abbot should be Monk.