Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: PapaGeek on January 10, 2022, 01:07:24 AM
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In my current post about the Princess and Dragon expansion, a lot of the talk was about why the player who draws a Dragon Tile has the right to move the Fairy BEFORE moving the Dragon. This one issue completely undermines the strategy and logic for when to sacrifice meeple placement so you can move the Fairy on your other turns during the game!
The PDF of the English version of the rules clearly shows that moving the Dragon is part of phase 1 of a player’s turn: 1. Placing a tile, then 1b. The dragon moves!
(http://www.papageek.com/car/box/print1.jpg)
And when talking about the Fairy the printed English rules clearly show that “The fairy moves” is clearly part of phase 2, “Placing a meeple”. and that moving the dragon is part of phase 1b.
(http://www.papageek.com/car/box/print2.jpg)
To me, as a relative newbie, this clearly states that moving the dragon is part of placing the tile and that moving the fairy is part of placing a meeple. Since phase 1 has to happen before phase 2, you can’t move the fairy before you move the dragon. This is one of the first things that we learn when we start playing Carcassonne, you can’t place a meeple on a tile in Phase 2 if you don’t have any meeples to place until after you score some points in phase 3. You have to do the phases in order!
FYI: We tried to purchase an English version of Princess and Dragon back in November, but none were available so we purchased and received our Nordic version in early January. That version comes with printed rule in 3 languages, all 3 languages, Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish label “The dragon flies” as phase 1a. and yes, the English version labels it as 1b, but ALL of the printed rules say that moving the dragon is part of phase 1.
Then we come to the WikiCarPedia version of the “Official Rules”.
(http://www.papageek.com/car/box/car1.jpg)
(http://www.papageek.com/car/box/car2.jpg)
The website has clearly moved “The Dragon Moves” from Phase 1a or 1b to Phase 2b. In this “modified” version of the printed rules, the person who draws the Dragon tile can Phase 2 place a meeple or move the Fairy before Phase 2b moving the dragon!
We all know that all 3 Phases of your move have to be completed in order. Changing the Dragon movement from Phase 1 to Phase 2 definitely allows the player who draws and places the Dragon tile to move the Fairy BEFORE moving the Dragon!
Who made the decision to move the Dragon Movement to Phase 2, and if this is an official move, why are all 3 of the printed versions of the rules that I received in January 2022 still saying that moving the dragon is part of Phase 1?
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Hi PapaGeek,
I rearranged the rules on WICA to match the correct order of actions and also to include the full turn sequence for the volcano and dragon tiles for a simpler reading. This was done according to:
* The wording of the rules in C1 and their clarifications provided by the CAR.
* The wording of the rules in C2 (ignore the numbering)
* The Turn Sequence included in Big Boxes 1-3
* The discussions on Discord in January 2021:
https://discord.com/channels/732545299351994379/740546221592018986/805832048878026812 (https://discord.com/channels/732545299351994379/740546221592018986/805832048878026812)
After a hectic month on Discord in early 2021, HiG retreated to work on the 20th Anniversary Edition and Paleo and we never got a conclusion to this discussion (and many others). Have a look at the two excerpts about the turn sequence and the dragon and their conclusion: HiG need to review the dragon rules, since it is clear that something is not right with the printed rules... But this will take some time. The discussion started with abbot and the dragon... just to let you know. There are witnesses on this forum of how difficult is to get a clear answer that does not generate a chain reaction firing several alarms each time...
Why do the printed dragon rules still reflect this incoherence? The same reason as Big Boxes 6 or 7 do not reflect that an abbot can use a flying machine after the proofreaders gave HiG a heads-up back in 2017... It may be a mix of human errors, bad timing and business priorities as well as people leaving the company and their knowledge going away with them: Georg Wild (C1 rules), Christof Tisch (C2 rules)... So new people take over but they lack the background and some possible To-Do lists affecting the rules and replicate previous errors unaware of them (for example, BB6 --> BB7)
These errors are not something new. They may be also seasoned by mistranslations that affected the C1 rules by RGG and ZMG, this time messing up the fairy (RGG and ZMG) or the dragon sequence (RGG). ZMG has maintained some of these errors and even added new ones to the BB6 rules: odd sentences (the pig removal), "may" turned into "must" (crop circles), added or removed restrictions (messages, robbers)... You could also check the early printed rules of The Tower, where placing a tower floor was totally mistaken...
EDIT: Added more comments about mistaken printed rules.
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Why do you say: “HiG need to review the dragon rules, since it is clear that something is not right with the printed rules”?
So far we have only played 2 games with the Princess and Dragon that we received one week ago. The first game was basic tiles and exp3 only, 102 tiles. The second game also included 24 Trader and Builder tiles fir a total of 126 tiles. One of the 6 Volcano tiles came up on average every 21 moves and one of the 12 Dragon tiles came up every 10.5 moves.
Now, think about the strategy for the Fairy. If you are playing by the printed rules, on average 10 players will have to make the strategic decision of placing a meeple on the tile they drew or moving the Fairy to protect their feature that is currently near the Dragon or to un-protect the feature of the player who is currently in the lead that is near the Dragon.
Why do the printed rules make this strategy important? Because the Dragon is going to move BEFORE the player who drew the Dragon tile is allowed to move the Fairy! The Dragon moves in phase 1b before the player can move the Fairy in phase 2.
If the rules are changed so that the Dragon move in phase 2b, AFTER the player who drew the Dragon tile can move the Fairy, the strategy of do I deploy a meeple or move the Fairy during the average 10 moves between the Dragon movement makes no sense. Who cares what I do with the Fairy when the player who drew the Dragon tile is the ONLY player who can make the final decision of where the Fairy will be before the Dragon moves!
It is definitely clear to me that the printed rules are right, changing the rules is not right!
If we do change the rules, should we also take the Fairy out of the expansion, because it has very little effect on the strategy any longer if the rules and changed that way?
PS: the link that you supplied requires a user/email and password. How do I sign up for that?
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Let me say just one more thing on the current printed rules.
The way the rules are written it is almost as if the designers of the expansion wanted the movement of the Dragon to be a completely random action. When a player randomly draws a Dragon tile, the action of the Dragon is NOT part of that players turn! The ONLY thing that that player is allowed to do before the Dragon moves is to place the Dragon tile wherever they want on the map.
Then the Dragon moves with no interference from the player who drew the tile.
After the Dragon moves, the player who drew the tile proceeds with all of the standard phases for their move. They decide if they want to place a meeple or move the Fairy, then they score any points created by their placement of the Dragon tile.
If it were up to me, the only change I might consider is that the placement of the Dragon tile would happen AFTER the Dragon moves! After all the placement of the tile is part of phase 1 and according to the printed rules, the movement of the Dragon is also part of phase 1, so it does not change the game at all if phase one is place then move or move then place!
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Let me say just one more thing on the current printed rules.
The way the rules are written it is almost as if the designers of the expansion wanted the movement of the Dragon to be a completely random action. When a player randomly draws a Dragon tile, the action of the Dragon is NOT part of that players turn! The ONLY thing that that player is allowed to do before the Dragon moves is to place the Dragon tile wherever they want on the map.
Then the Dragon moves with no interference from the player who drew the tile.
After the Dragon moves, the player who drew the tile proceeds with all of the standard phases for their move. They decide if they want to place a meeple or move the Fairy, then they score any points created by their placement of the Dragon tile.
If it were up to me, the only change I might consider is that the placement of the Dragon tile would happen AFTER the Dragon moves! After all the placement of the tile is part of phase 1 and according to the printed rules, the movement of the Dragon is also part of phase 1, so it does not change the game at all if phase one is place then move or move then place!
Although the printed rules (https://images.zmangames.com/filer_public/da/30/da30ce4e-814e-427c-b97b-2be3501961e1/zm7813_carcassonne_exp3_rules.pdf) say "1b.", they also say "Dragon tiles are placed exactly like those in the base game. Unlike Volcano tiles, you are allowed to place a meeple on a Dragon tile. Then... the dragon moves!". "Then" is after "you are allowed to place a meeple on a Dragon tile".
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When I first read the dragon rules, I assumed the turn sequence was 1 - 1b - 2 - 3 and even implemented it like this on WICA, but when cross checking with the C2 German rules, the C1 rules and the Turn sequence of the dragon in Big Box 1, 2 and 3, I realized there was something off: the phase numbering. So I rearranged the numbering to match the wording of the rules themselves.
For the rest of this post, please consider the following terms:
- Wording of the rules: the text included in the box describing a sequence of actions.
- Numbering of the actions: 1, 1b, 2, 2b, 3... used to identify the chronological sequence of the actions described in the text and used in the titles of the boxes.
Let's revisit first the wording of the dragon rules in different versions of the rules...
English wording printed by ZMG for C2:
The Dragon (12 tiles): Dragon tiles are placed exactly like those in the base game. Unlike Volcano tiles, you are allowed to place a meeple on a Dragon tile. Then... the dragon moves!
English translation of the wording printed by HiG for C2:
The Dragon (12 tiles): As soon as you draw a tile with a dragon, you place it as usual and may place a meeple on it. Then the game is briefly interrupted: The dragon moves!
English translation of the wording printed by HiG for C1 (using follower instead of meeple and a third-person view):
The Dragon (12 tiles)
As soon as a tile with a dragon on it is drawn, the player places it as usual and may place a follower on it. Then the game is briefly interrupted - the dragon moves!
I tagged the actions described in the paragraph so you can see the sequence followed and the inconsistent numbering used:
(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5658.0;attach=16615)
The wording is equivalent in C1 and C2, so how is it possible that C2 can follow a sequence different from C1? You can see the dragon moves after 2. Placing a meeple. The sequence described in the text is 1 - 2 - 1b - 3 both in C1 and C2 (even more clear in the German rules). The rules wording matches the turn sequences included in Big Boxes 1, 2 and 3. So, the phase numbering in the C2 printed rules is wrong! Therefore the changes on WICA.
Again, here you are the annotated C1 turn sequence included in Big Box 1, so you can see what I mean. This is what the text describes and this is the sequence assumed on WICA both for C1 and C2:
(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5658.0;attach=16617)
Note: MindOk, the Czech publisher, may have noticed something and omitted the phase number for the dragon movement (no 1b).
I'm not discussing here what is better or worse strategy-wise. Just the contents of the rules the error propagated in the C2 rules.
EDIT: Updated second image and included the wording from C1 as well.
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@PapaGeek I made several changes to my previous post. Just read it again in case you read a previous version.
Conclusion: the dragon rules in C1 and C2 follow an equivalent wording, so the dragon tile follows the same turn sequence in both editions (as detailed graphically in Big Boxes 1, 2 and 3). Based on this, Phase 1b is misnumbered and should be 2b in order to be consistent with the sequence explained in the printed text in both editions.
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@Meepledrone: I also looked at all of this again, and I want to continue the approach that is currently printed in ALL of the rules that come with the expansion. My answer below is a Phase 0!
My Conclusion: So what if moving the Dragon is step 1a in the Nordic community and 1b in the English speaking world. It is still part of phase 1 and therefore happens before you place any meeples. Why not work on that!
The answer to this issue is actually very simple. The Dragon symbol on a drawn tile triggers the movement of the Dragon before anything else in the player’s turn.
Phase 0: Draw the tile and notice the Dragon symbol. The dragon immediately starts moving up to 6 times.
Phase 1: Placing a Tile
Phase 2: Placing a Meeple
Phase 3: Scoring a Feature
This way the movement of the Dragon is not part of any player’s turn. It happens between the turns of two players and none of the players have any control over how or when the dragon moves.
If you look at the 12 Dragon tiles, they are just like a variety of tiles in the base game. There are cities and roads and monasteries and even a garden. If you make the change that I just suggested, after the Dragon moves (between turns) the player places the otherwise normal looking tile just like a normal tile. The Dragon symbol only effects what happens between turns, not what happens on anyone’s actual turn!
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This could also be done without the creation of a phase 0. On the current CAR Order of Play page, 1. Placing a tile is defined as:
Step 1A: Begin Turn
There are no particular actions for this step.
Step 1B: Draw a Tile
a. Randomly draw a tile.
b. Show the tile to all players.
Step 1C: Place the Tile
a. Place the tile. If the placement is illegal, you must discard the tile and go back to Step 1B.
b. Note: any tile-based feature that is finished is considered complete at this time.
All you would have to do is add an item c under Step1B: Draw a tile.
c. If there is a symbol on the tile that requires special actions, perform them.
This would be where if there was a Dragon symbol on the tile, move the Dragon happens, then you move on to Step 1C: Place the Tile
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You can use the rules you like best if you find them more interesting for your games.
My recommendation: even with its flaws, go to the source, that is, the German rules in case of doubt. Their wording tends to be more precise, and some translations skip some details or change some sentences slightly creating unwanted side effects. If you use the Nordic rules for arbitration, as I did originally with the ZMG rules for C2, you will get disappointed every time you come across a mistranslation, a creative addition or a random change.
The Nordic publisher, the same as the Czech one, felt that "1b" was odd so, in this case, they renumbered the step to "1a." I wouldn't try to search for an ulterior reasn for that.
Theproposal of a phase 0 (or 1b) is an interesting variant that may deserve being explored. However, it does not match the rules, since the dragon movement is trigerred by the placement of a dragon tile, not just by drawing it. If you draw a dragon tile, but you can't place it, the dragon will not move. This is a similar case to many other expansion mechanics such as bazaars or the 20th Anniversary Expansion arrow symbols, to name just two. Peasant Revolts and the Wheel of Fortune are two exceptions triggering their actions before the tile is placed.
If Step 1b was the correct numbering, the dragon would move at the end of Step 1C in the turn summary (as the last action of Phase 1). This is where I placed it first, assuming C2 was changing the rules for the dragon (the same as for the wagon, for example). But then I realized this was an unintentional mistake, so I changed it all and kept the dragon rules aligned with C1.
Beyond the matter of taste regarding the existing rules, the equivalence of the German wording in C1 and C2 and their consistency through the years should suffice to flag the inconsistency in the C2 printed rules. Two equivalent wordings cannot lead to two different turn sequences.
Again, the wording indicates that the dragon moves after phase 2. Placing a meeple.
Things like this make Exp. 3 one of the most complicated to understand, due to their complexity and the many mistakes and alterations publishers have introduced in them.
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Anyway funny think. @petul sent some errata of Czech rules to MINDOK rule translator. This changes was made on C2 rules. He answered that that rules are old.
I think every publisher got rules in C3 version and all next reprints of expansion na will be in this dosing. And it will be very quick. In Czech Republic Tower expansion is sold out more than year. And still waiting for reprint. So Im in 100% sure it will be in C3 and very soon.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
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And I hope it will includes some answers to @Meepledrone 's questions requested by HiG last year.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
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Well, this has been a very active thread, I appreciate all the posts and I have learned a lot about how everyone has different ideas on how the Dragon should be played. So, as for our four player group, this is how we are going to handle the Dragon on our next game night:
The Order of Play page on WikiCarPedia details the first two phases (Place a tile, Place a meeple) as follows, AND, the English version of the Princess and Dragon rules say that the movement of the Dragon happens in phase 1b.
(http://www.papageek.com/car/box/order.jpg)
Looking at the image, 1b works perfect for us. 1b is Draw a Tile. If the movement of the Dragon happens within this phase no one can take any advantage of the movement. It is literally happening randomly between the moves of two players. The player who actually drew the tile doesn’t even get to 1c Place the Dragon Tile until after the Dragon has moved.
This will leave the strategy of when does a player sacrifice placing a meeple for the advantage of moving the Fairy to either protect one of their own features or un-protect one of the other player’s features completely untouched. Some of the posts want the player who draws the Dragon to move the Fairy before the Dragon moves, which completely undermines that strategy.
So bottom line, in our next game the Dragon will move as soon as a player looks at their drawn tile and before they place it on the board!
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Just as an FYI, here is a link to the rule that we created for our Game Night Group based on all of the posts made on this forum:
http://www.papageek.com/car/Dragon.htm#PlacingDragonTile (http://www.papageek.com/car/Dragon.htm#PlacingDragonTile)
Our thanks to all for their help
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Just a comment:
The rules on WICA reflect the turn sequence consistent with the wording for C1 and C2, no matter the step numbering on the C2 printed rules is mistaken. Due to this error, some publishers add their own twist, as you have seen.
As explained above, the official sequence is 1 - 2 - 2b (The dragon moves) - 3. It has not changed since the release of Exp. 3 in 2005, as the wording has stayed consistent in both HiG editions. The turn sequence tables in all Big Boxes with the dragon confirm it.
A sequence like 1 - 1b (The dragon moves) - 2 - 3 departs from the official rules, even more if the dragon moves before the tile is placed. A different matter is that you prefer this custom turn sequence for your games.
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In the official Carcassonne app for iOS, you can move the Fairy after placing a Dragon tile and before the Dragon moves.
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Same for the official Asmodee (Zman) app for Android (maybe you're talking about the same app) :yellow-meeple:
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Was the same in the Coding Monkeys Carcassonne app, which was the official one before the license was passed to a different company.
I have not tried the new app but I imagine it behaves the same.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I told everyone that I would give them a report on how things went with our newbie group after playing the Dragon with both the 2005 and 2016 rules.
We played 2 games with the Dragons last weekend, first just basic game tiles and Princess and Dragon tile, and the second game also included Traders and Builders. Both games followed the 2005 rules where the player who draws the Dragon tile gets to Place the Tile, Place a Meeple or Move the Fairy before the Dragon moves.
We played two more games this weekend, both games were played with the 2016 printed version of the rules where the dragon moves in phase 1B, before the player who draws the tile places it on the board. The only advantage that the player who draws the tile has with this version of the rules is that they make the first move of the Dragon. Our first game included the basic game tiles, River I and II, plus Inns and Cathedrals. The second game also included Traders and Builders plus the Bridges and Castles, without the Bazaars.
All four of us agree that, basically, moving the dragon immediately after drawing it, totally before the player who draws the tile can even place it on the board, makes the game, especially the Fairy movements, far more interesting.
Our house rules will be to follow the 2016 printed version of the rules as printed!
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I've not followed this thread, but as a general rule of thumb asking why something happened usually doesn't get satisfactory answers because they're rarely detailed, and left to conjecture.
For example the latest River source has a road on it after 20 years.... why? Because someone somewhere someday decided to put a road on it. It's probably because the river isn't enjoyed by many because it generally creates large farms, putting a road in it resolves some of that issue. But the publisher won't confirm that, and even if they did, it would probably be because it's easier than explaining all of the thought they put into it .
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Just to put it out there:
If you move the dragon first, that potentially allows you to score a feature that has been freed up just right now.
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Our house rules will be to follow the 2016 printed version of the rules as printed!
And that is totally fine. Rules are rules, but the fun is at each table different enjoy the game how you like O0