Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: PapaGeek on January 07, 2022, 09:42:40 PM
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We played our first Princess and Dragon expansion tonight, and one question was in the front of everyone’s mind. When you place the Dragon tile, if you do not place a meeple, can you move the Fairy before the Dragon moves?
Just did a Google search on the subject and got a lot of conflicting answers, and WikiCarPedia does not give a definite answer either.
Item 2. Placing a meeple says: You may place a meeple on a Dragon tile, unlike Volcano tiles. Then the dragon moves.
Then 2b. The dragon moves: the very first words are: Starting with the active player and proceeding clockwise, players take turns moving the dragon one space at a time (vertically or horizontally) until the dragon has moved 6 spaces or is unable to move.
The Fairy portion of the page talks says: The fairy moves: On any turn in which you do not place (or move) a meeple, you may assign the fairy to one of your meeples by placing the fairy directly next to it.
OK, it is not specific! If placing the dragon includes the 6 moves of the dragon and one of the dragon moves causes a meeple to be “moved” from the board back into a player’s supply, then you would not be entitled to move the fairy.
There are a number of “Additional clarifications” on the WikiCarPedia page, and there are a number of conflicting answers to this question on various website for the Google search: What is the official ruling on this question?
Can I place a dragon tile, then move the Fairy from another player’s meeple onto my meeple for my personal protection BEFORE the dragon moves?
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Let me add one more comment to this question:
On each move during the game, the players can make a decision to either place a meeple or move the fairy. If your big city is near the dragon, it might be worth not placing a meeple to protect that city.
If the person who draws a dragon tile has the right to remove your protection before the dragon moves, why even bother to try to defend your position?
Moving the dragon is the very first thing in section 2b, which is part of placing your meeple. The entire process of “placing your meeple” or “moving a meeple” has not been completed yet, so how can you move the Fairy if the meeple placement or movement has not been completed?
In my opinion, the player who places the dragon tile should wait until after the dragon moves to see if they are able to move the fairy, which can happen only if the dragon did not consume any meeples!
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1:
Yes,the dragon moves after the "placing a meeple" step, so you can move the fairy, before the dragon moves
2.
Correct
2b:
The ddagon is NOT a meeple, here's the confusion :yellow-meeple:
See meeple list here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Figures (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Game_Figures)
So final answer is yes you can ;)
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As answered by corinthiens13, Yes the active player can move the fairy or place a meeple before moving the dragon happens, and then entering the scoring phase
The meeples consumed by the dragon are technically ‘eaten’ rather than ‘moved’ and effectively ’respawn’ back with their player.
The dragons moves are initiated by the active player drawing a dragon tile but are not technically part of the active players turn (it just happens during it), so consumed meeple are not being ‘moved’ by the active player. Otherwise the dragon would technically only be able to eat one meeple per turn :)
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So what you are saying is that the Fairy is a useless object during the game! The ONLY player who has any use for the Fairy is the player who draws a Dragon tile. It is a total waste of time to sacrifice placing a meeple during your turn to move a Fairy to protect your features because only the person who draws the Dragon tile can do that! The only player who can protect a feature from the Dragon is the player who actually draws the Dragon tile!
Can you also explain the words (or move) in the definition of when the Fairy can move? If part of the definition of placing the dragon tile includes moving the dragon which can land on a meeple and “move” it back to the owners supply stack, isn’t that movement of a meeple part of placing the dragon tile?
It is interesting, the printed version of the Zman game rules (https://images.zmangames.com/filer_public/da/30/da30ce4e-814e-427c-b97b-2be3501961e1/zm7813_carcassonne_exp3_rules.pdf) defines moving the dragon as “1b” part of Placing a Tile, while the WikiCarPedia online rules have moving the dragon as “2b” part of Placing a meeple. Was this an attempt by WikiCarPedia to make sure that “or move” has no meaning for the player who draws a dragon tile!
We talk about the Princess, but these rules make the person who draws the dragon tile, the King!
I’d be interested in what the other players think about the way this has been redefined, 1b to 2b!
Also, can someone give me an example on how meeples are “moved” during the game! Are we only talking about the wagon meeple? And of course doesn’t that only happen after the scoring phase, not the placement of tiles and meeples!
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As I stated in the beginning of this post, tonight was the first night we have played the Princess and Dragon. The first game was basic tiles plus exp 3. The second game also included Traders and Builders.
During both game we did play with the house rules that yes, the person who places the Dragon tile is the player who also makes the final placement of the Fairy before the Dragon moves. And, all of us found this to be a rule that made the Fairy a relatively useless object to everyone else but the person drawing the Dragon tile!
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The active player can only move the fairy to protect their meeple if they do not wish to claim a feature on the dragon tile by placing a meeple on it.
The fairy’s other Benefits are 1 free point if you still have the fairy on your meeple’s tile when your turn comes back around (easy to forget to do this though) and extra points for completing your Road/city/cloister etc that the fairy is occupying.
Remember what I said above, dragon ‘eats’ meeples not ‘moves’ them, then they effectively respawn back with their player (the player gets them back).
Edit: I prefer this expansion’s mechanics for removing other players meeple from the map, at least you just get them back if it happens to you, no taking prisoners like with The Tower. Feels much more in keeping with rest of game.
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Apart from the wagon example, ‘moving’ meeple generally means placing a meeple on a feature or removing a meeple (like removing abbot from incomplete feature or removing other players meeple from city using princess tile for example). But not being eaten by the dragon.
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From our Google search we can see that this question has been asked in many different languages around the world, with many different opinions for answers.
We tried to get the English version of the expansion, but Z_MAN games was out of stock and we had to get a Nordic version which came with 3 copies of the rules in 3 languages. What WikiCarPedia displays as “2b. The dragon moves”, our Nordic rules show as:
1a. Dragen flyr Norwegian: The dragon flies
1a. Draken flyger Swedish: The dragon flies
1a. Dragen flyver Danish: The dragon flies
And the on line PDF from Z_MAN games shows as:
1b. The dragon moves
The standard Carcassonne turn happens in 3 parts: 1 place a tile, 2 place a meeple, and 3 score the features.
The published versions of this expansion do not specifically state that the person who draws and places the Dragon tile can move the Fairy around before the dragon moves. In fact, the rules say that the dragon moves in part 1 while placing the tile, not in part two while placing or moving a meeple (Fairy).
In our personal opinions, letting the player who draws the dragon tile move the Fairy before the dragon moves reduces the Fairy to a Booby Prize! If I draw a useless tile that isn’t worth placing a meeple on, I get to move the Fairy to one of my tiles. Then, if all of the other players draw good tiles that are worth placing a meeple on, WOW I get 1 point at the beginning of my next turn, and an extra 3 points if the feature my Fairy is on is completed.
The question of should I place a meeple or protect my feature is totally gone, because only the player who draws the dragon tile gets to protect their own feature!
So I have to ask again, why did WikiCarPedia move “the dragon moves” from Placing a Tile to Placing a Meeple?
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Different versions of official rules place the dragon action in 1b or 2b. Placing it in 2b on WICA comes from a clarification by HiG :yellow-meeple:
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Well, there are always House Rules.
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And, all of us found this to be a rule that made the Fairy a relatively useless object to everyone else but the person drawing the Dragon tile!
You aren’t alone. Check out the Element of the Week: Fairy (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1397.msg17609#msg17609) thread for many similar comments, like this:
…definitely the biggest weakness of the expansion--makes the fairy extremely powerful, but all that power is based in luck.
As far as the side jobs the Fairy has when not protecting from the Dragon, here is @Whaleyland’s summary, from BGG (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/613721/barbarian-report-here-there-be-dragons):
…other rules that are hard to remember, rather pointless (pun intended), and rarely followed. Indeed, I haven't included the extra fairy rules in any game I have played since the third time I played this expansion…
Are you sure you don’t want to play the Fairy-free “Wyvern” variant from Old City expansion? >:D
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If you check the Turn Summary of Big Boxes 1-3 the Dragon moves after placing a meeple or moving the fairy... This has been like this since the very beginning.
Please check this image from Big Box 1.
(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5653.0;attach=16602)
The C2 P&D rules are rather misleading, since the step numbering is not right. It does not match what it is said in the text:
The Dragon (12 tiles): Dragon tiles are placed exactly like those in the base game [Phase 1]. Unlike Volcano tiles, you are allowed to place a meeple on a Dragon tile [Phase 2]. Then... the dragon moves! [Phase 1b? :o It happens after Phase 2]
So how can the dragon move in Phase 1b if the movement happens after Phase 2? Unluckily, this mistake by HiG has spread all over to other publishers. I discussed this issue with HiG about one year ago and they haven't even bothered to update the PDF version of the rules on their site. :'(
You may find all this summarized in the the consolidated Order of Play here (select the expansions you are interested in):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play)
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I just prepared this quick-and-dirty summary of the Turn Sequence tables included in Big Boxes 1-7... Of course, many expansions are not represented and should be included such as Exp. 10 and The Phantom (with new meeples) and others including tokens or implementing new mechanics affecting meeples.
In any case, this table may come handy. ;)
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Thanks for the updated turn sequence, but again, the printed rules for Princess and Dragon in at least the four languages that I referenced in my second post on this thread specifically say that moving the dragon is part of phase 1, not at the end of phase 2!
We can live with the rule that the player who draws the dragon tile is the player who makes the final decision on where the Fairy is when the Dragon starts moving. The only issue we have with this rule is that it greatly diminishes the role/strategy of the Fairy. Why would I ever want to sacrifice placing a meeple that would take control of another feature to protect another feature with the Fairy if that sacrifice would be basically useless according to the rules?
And this brings up another question. If the dragon tile is placed in such a way that it completes one of your features, does that mean that you can’t move the Fairy. The rules for the basic game do say that when you score that feature at the end of your turn, you “move the meeple you placed on the scoreboard before starting the game” the number of points that your feature was worth!
Again, we can live with the rule, it just doesn’t seem logical to us that this rule almost eliminates that portion of the strategy for moving the Fairy!
Like I said, so far, we have only played 2 games that included the Princess and Dragon expansion, and we definitely enjoyed and talked about the various strategic moves for the Fairy each turn. We will definitely have to talk about how this changes our strategy for the Fairy when we get together for our next weekly game night!
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Adding the fairy bonus to a larger city might not seem like a big deal but when you are able to get fairy bonuses on roads or cloisters the benefit is clearer - is a 33% bonus for a cloister for example or nearly double the points for a 2 tile city. Moving the fairy regardless of dragon protection does have merit. If you are completing a feature you already own and the fairy is not already protecting one of your own important meeple close to the dragon’s location then it makes sense to move the fairy to the feature you are about to complete for the bonus.
With a game that is, as often as not, won by a difference of just a few points or less, even small fairy bonuses can be worth it.
Scoring a completed feature and getting your meeple back is not counted as ‘moving’ a meeple, it happens during scoring stage and after you may have already ‘moved wood’ in the previous stage. Nor is moving the scoreboard meeple counted as ‘moving wood’
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As I said in a previous post, one thing is the numbering on the phases in the printed rules and other is the actions described in each phase. The writen rules indicate that the dragon moves after placing meeple although the step numbering indicates otherwise. After re-reading caefully and cross checking with the rules for the old edition, you can see the numbering is wrong.
Additionally, it is not the only time when HiG describes an action in the phase it is triggered, not the one where it happens. The same issue happens with the removal of the abbot (The Abbot), the shepherd actions (Exp. 9) or the scoring of an acrobat pyramid (Exp. 10). This causes a lot of confusion incremented by the lack of space and the convoluted wording at times.
I can tell you that Exp. 3 is the most visited major expansion on WICA. I rearranged the rules and separated the volcano and the dragon to help understand the steps to follow.
The German rules were clearer about the fairy in the 1st Edition, believe or not, sinc they mentioned the fairy too (as reflected in the CAR):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon_(1st_edition)#The_dragon
(https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon_(1st_edition)#The_dragon)A player who places a dragon tile may deploy a follower or move the fairy as usual. Then (before scoring) the game is interrupted —the dragon is on the move!
When placing a dragon tile, the active's player dilemma before starting to move the dragon is always the same:
A) Shall I move the fairy and protect any of my meeples closer whith range from the dragon?
B) Shall I occupy a feature with a meeple, especially if the dragon tile extends or completes and interesting one?
C) What if I sacrifice a meeple to the dragon?
D) How can I defend my position if I use the dragon to attack others? Am I ready for retaliation?
So the fairy is an important piece of the puzzle.
My experience with the dragon is that:
* Some areas of the board get empty and people try to re-occupy features that they or someone else lost due to the dragon.
* The fairy can also be used to block the dragon at a dead end.
* You have to build small and quick especially at the beginning of the game.
* At the end of the game, if combining several expansions, the dragon will get cornered in the playing area and far from the active areas of the board.
Along with magic portals, the fairy will help you alleviate the damage the dragon can provoke .
If you feel some additional clarifications to WICA would be useful, please let me know.
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OK, after reading all of this post, and re-reading it a few times, I think that everything comes down to a simple definition of a single word, “move”.
The Fairy portion of the page talks says: The fairy moves: On any turn in which you do not place (or move) a meeple, you may assign the fairy to one of your meeples by placing the fairy directly next to it.
So, what are the proper definitions of or move in the game of Carcassonne?
If I do not place a meeple when I place the Dragon, so I can remove my Abbot from a Garden and score some points, is that counted as a move?
If the placement of the Dragon completes a feature where I also have my wagon, is the eventual movement of that wagon considered a meeple move? So can I also move the Fairy?
“You keep track of your score with the meeple you placed on the scoreboard before starting the game.” If placing the Dragon will result in you scoring points, is that a move of your scoring meeple?
The fact that the player who places the Dragon can undo the placement of the Fairy by all of the other players is to put it mildly, critical! The restriction of “placing a meeple” is obvious, but the definition for moving a meeple is extremely fuzzy and depends on how everyone chooses to define other words within the rules!
So, bottom line, can someone give us a complete list of the various ways that a meeple is moved as a result of the placement of a tile?
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So, bottom line, can someone give us a complete list of the various ways that a meeple is moved as a result of the placement of a tile?
Probably not. (https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5344.msg78218#msg78218) >:D
In a letter to his nephew in 1787, Thomas Jefferson observed that when you pose a difficult decision “to plowman and a professor, the former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules.”
The plowman’s answers to your questions are “yes” (Abbot score = move), “yes” (wagon move = move) and “no” (scoring track meeple not a meeple in this context). 8)
It seems like you want to use a House Rule that does not allow moving the Fairy after placing a dragon tile. Or at least until after the dragon has moved. I think many people would agree that this change would result in a more tactical game than the official rules—so go for it! :(y)
And then report back with the observed effects! :)
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What is interesting here is that the words (or move) were so important in defining when the Fairy can move that they were put in parentheses!
Kothmann’s first response agrees with only two items for the definition of “move”: The Abbot score is a move, and the Wagon move is a move. But let me ask this, if moving the scoring meeple IS NOT a move, and the Abbot score IS a move; what is the difference between the Abbot score and the normal completion of a feature? OK, the Abbot is MOVEd from the board back to your meeple supply, but if you completed a feature, isn’t your meeple that was on that feature also MOVEd back to your supply?
If (or move) is so important, where is the long list of what it means?
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Well, look at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play), go to "quick selector" tab, press "select all" and read step 2b.
"move" is only considering step 2b movements, not any other (so wagon movement is not considered since it doesn't happen in step 2b, only wagon placement is considered).
It's very hard to understand the line when looking at the rules, but quite easy when looking at the order of play.
Note that the order of play's step 2b states:
Skip this step if you removed a knight with a princess symbol.
Otherwise, you may do one and only one of the following:
Fairy movement is one of those following actions from which you can perform only one.
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So now you are even taking the wagon out of the definition of “or move”!
You are basically saying that the person who places the Dragon tile has almost full control of the placement of the Fairy before the Dragon moves.
The line in WikiCarPedia clearly states that the placement of the Fairy happens: “On any turn in which you do not place (or move) a meeple”. But is seems as if the words “or move” have no meaning whatsoever. I keep asking what is a "move" and everyone keeps saying “that’s not a move”, ”that’s not a move”!
So why should any player try to “protect” their meeples with the Fairy when the ONLY thing that the person who draws a Dragon tile has to do is not place a meeple to completely unprotect what any of the other players are trying to protect.
The expansion is Princess and Dragon, and we are declaring the player who draws the Dragon tile as King.
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wagon movement is not considered [movement] since it doesn't happen in step 2b.
Oops. I never play with the wagon so I forgot the sequence. But I still think this falls into the category of questions that are easily resolved by Plowman's intuition.
But is seems as if the words “or move” have no meaning whatsoever.
Maybe it is referring to Tower floor placement and meeple capture (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tower#2._Placing_a_meeple_or_a_tower_floor)?
...the ONLY thing that the person who draws a Dragon tile has to do is not place a meeple...
As a general rule, not placing a meeple when you have a good option is a very bad outcome. The active player (who draws the dragon tile) has the right to move the dragon first, and therefore can often start the beast in a direction that makes it difficult or impossible for the opponents to cause any of the active player's meeples to be eaten, even if there is collusion among the opponents. If that would allow you to claim a 2-tile city or a 6-point monastery, then moving the fairy instead is a very bad result!
I agree with you that the game would be more tactically interesting if the step-2 sequence after drawing a dragon tile were:
- usual step-2 stuff; {I don't think you should move the dragon in step-1 of the turn, because then you could place the dragon tile very near the location of the dragon, move the dragon to kill an opponent's meeple, and then put your own meeple in the now-empty feature after the dragon motion is over.}
- move the dragon;
- move the fairy if no wood moved in part 1 of step 2 (usual stuff) {I don't think you should eliminate the ability to move the fairy when drawing a dragon tile, because you might complete your own feature by placing the dragon tile and want to move the fairy to secure the 3-point bonus.}
Even though this sequence might be better, it isn't totally crazy as it is now, and it would be a disaster to change the official rules, after so much effort has gone into defining the current sequence. House rules are an easy fix to your problem.
I think en passant in chess and infield-fly rule in baseball are both unnecessary complexities, but they are both well over 100 years old, so we're stuck with them.
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Short answer:
Beyond the ambiguities in the rules, the "or move" part may refererence the removal of a knight with the princess tile.
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Long answer:
As commented above, the explaression "place (or move) a meeple" will refer to actions taking place in 2. Placing a meeple that affect meeples. As we know, we will have to apply tunnel vision and consider only those actions included in the base game and Exp. 3 alone...
If we check the consolidated Order of Play on WICA as corinthiens13 recommended, you may see the following groups of actions happening in 2. Placing a meeple which cannot happen when you move the fairy:
* Placing a wooden meeple (protecting it or not when relevant):
- on the tile just placed
- on an acrobat pyramid on an adjacent tile
- on another tile with a magic portal (this may include acrobat pyramids)
- on another tile with a flying machine (this may include acrobat pyramids)
- on a tower
- on the Wheel of Fortune
* Placing a special figure:
- a builder
- a pig
- a barn
- a shepherd
* Placing a neutral figure:
- a tower floor (that may possibly capture a meeple)
- (the fairy)
* Placing a token:
- a tollhouse
- a little building
* Moving a meeple:
- Removing an abbot
- Removing a knight with a princess tile
- Triggering the scoring of an acrobat pyramid
- Removing a meple with a festival tile (The Festival)
- Removing a meeple trapped by Solovei Razboynik
- Removing a meeple trapped by Vodyanoy
- Protecting a meeple already placed
* Moving a special figure:
- Removing a special figure trapped by Solovei Razboynik
- Removing a special figure trapped by Vodyanoy
After any of this actions you may place a phantom, except if you removed a knight with a princess tile:
* Placing a phantom (protecting it or not when relevant):
- on the tile just placed
- on another tile with a magic portal, if not used earlier (this may include acrobat pyramids)
- on another tile with a flying machine, if not used earlier (this may include acrobat pyramids)
- on a tower
- on the Wheel of Fortune
The tunnel vision in the rules may reduce the scope to the underlined groups and the actions in bold. There's a lot left out as you can see, there are more options than just placing or moving a meeple...
If you try HiG or other publishers to cover all the possiblities in their printed rules, you may go crazy. We don't have much information about the context of the "(or move)" part. It was added in the new edition and it may be just a reference to removing a knight with the Princess tile, that is, the only option intrinsic to the expansion in this case.
The wagon moves at the end of 3. Scoring a feature, so it is out of the equation, the same all actions affecting meeples in 1. Placing a Tile (opening gifts, Wheel of Fortune actions, peasant revolts,...) or after scoring (escaping a besieged city, using crop circles...) the same as the movement of scoring meeples.
The sequence of actions is the one we discussed earlier, backed by the 1st Edition rules and its clarifications for years. You can see how the addition of two well intentioned words is dragging you down to the dungeons of the despair. The wording in the rules is not perfect and it harbors many ambiguities... I can tell you after more than three years struggling with the rules and their meaning between the lines. (For example, read the printed rules of C2 Exp. 5 (top of page 3) and tell me if the mayor is a meeple, or tell me your understanding of the first clarifications about the ringmaster in C2 Exp. 10, page 6)
Moving the fairy before the dragon moves gives an advantage to the player placing the dragon tile, but once he makes the dragon's first movement, anything can happen with the rest of the unprotected meeples, especially at the eraly stages of the game when all the features and meeples are clustered in a small area.