The Abbot, Acrobats and Ghosts

[Meepledrone]

@NGC 54 came across this post on Reddit about removing an abbot with ghosts from Exp. 11 - Ghosts, Castles & Cemeteries.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Carcassonne/comments/14cq59i/removing_a_ghosthaunted_abbot_from_an_incomplete/

This topic is not covered by the rules and HiG might clarify it eventually if we are lucky. In the meantime, I wanted to share with you the issue and see if we can decide a community rule for this case. The question on the table is:

How many points is a ghost added to an abbot worth when the abbot is removed from a monastery or a garden during the game?
a) 0 points, since the abbot removal is a figure scoring and ghosts should not affect it. Abbots only affect completed features during the game.
b) -1 point, since the abbot is scored as if the monastery or garden was scored at the end of the game.
c) -2 points, since the abbot is scored during the game, no matter whether the number of points considered is computed as if the feature with the abbot was scored after the game.

On top of this, I've been also trying to make the parallel case affecting acrobats from Exp. 10 - Under the Big Top. You could asign ghosts to an acrobat in a pyramid. What would happen when scoring the acrobat pyramid? Would the scoring of an acrobat with ghosts be affected? How would cases a) or c) apply to acrobats?

What do you think?


My current thoughts are the following for each case (spoiler alert - maybe you want to think about your take on all this before reading my current thoughts below):

a) 0 points (no effect - special case for abbots and acrobats): This was my initial thought for a brief period of time, but it seemed too easy for an abbot could shake off any ghost this way. I thought that if ghosts can remove an abbot, it should also affect its scoring. The same logic would apply to acrobats. The rules do not link the ghost penalty to the completion of a feature but to the participation of a meeple in a scoring.

b) -1 point (end-game penalty - special case for abbots only): This option seemed right from the standpoint of computing the points of the feature, but it didn't look right that an abbot scored during the game was less penalized than an acrobat (-1 point for abbots and -2 points for acobats didn't seem right). This seemed awkward. 

c) -2 points (during-the-game penalty - general case for abbots and acrobats): This option is my current favorite, since both abbots and acrobats should be penalized by ghosts the same way during the game. So even if the abbot scores the same points as its feature would score at the end of the game, this is just an example of how the points are computed, but doesn't force ghosts added to abbots to behave in a special way. All ghosts should be worth -2 points during the game. No matter what.

So, in the end. The general case as described in option c) seems right to me. But you may have different points of view, and a different line of thought. I would appreciate all your inputs. Thank you in advance.

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=6610.0

[NGC 54]

a) 0 points (no effect - special case for abbots and acrobats): This was my initial thought for a brief period of time, but it seemed too easy for an abbot could shake off any ghost this way. I thought that if ghosts can remove an abbot, it should also affect its scoring. The same logic would apply to acrobats. The rules do not link the ghost penalty to the completion of a feature but to the participation of a meeple in a scoring.

This is the only option that is consistent with the bonus of 3 points from the fairy.

[Meepledrone]

My dilemma with case a) is that removing an abbot would avoid any penalty from ghosts, so it would benefit the player.

The ghost rules state:

However, each ghost added to the meeple being scored costs you -2 points.

Should we extend this from meeples scored in 3. Scoring a feature to meeples scored in 2. Placing a meeple? If a meeple can be assigned ghosts and removed because of it, those ghosts should be also be considered in scorings affecting that meeple.

We excluded the Fairy bonus from scorings taking place in 2. Placing a meeple because it is triggered by the scoring of tile-based features in 3. Scoring a feature.

[Vital Pluymers]

I think it should be option c.
Ghosts are penalizing scoring meeples, independent of the feature scoring. If two meeples are in the same feature and one of them is ghosted, the ghost penalty only affects the ghosted player. So, a ghost penalty does not take into account which feature is scored, it just penalizes the scoring meeple it is frightening. So, my vote is for option c, both for abbot and acrobat scoring.

[wolnic]

I think I would also vote for option C.

[Bumsakalaka]

We excluded the Fairy bonus from scorings taking place in 2. Placing a meeple because it is triggered by the scoring of tile-based features in 3. Scoring a feature.

Main reason for excluding was, that you are scoring Fairy and not meeple.

[Meepledrone]

I wrote about this question to Cundco. Let's see if they have an answer for this. Fingers crossed.

Hope they don't invoke the Prime Directive. 

[Meepledrone]

Replied by Cundco after invoking the Prime Directive:

Option C) is the chosen one: Any ghosts added to an abbot being removed will be worth -2 points. Please check here:

https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=6618.msg94560#msg94560

[Vital Pluymers]

Clear and logical rule.

Keep up the good work!