Author Topic: Clarification of rules (halflings & double-sized tiles) - with HiG - 21 01 2021  (Read 6067 times)

Offline Vital Pluymers

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I'm tired, sorry for the two replies I did just post and delete, I got confused  :o

I think we should always consider the spaces around the feature.
•   For features like the monastery group, watchtower, big top we count the 8 spaces around the feature tile.
•   For the German castle tile, we count the ten spaces around the German castle tile.
•   For castles, we count the six spaces of the castle’s fief.
•   For meeples for which the surrounding space is important, like the wagon or ringmaster, we consider the number of spaces based on the tile it is placed on, hence 8, 10 or the castle’s fief.
•   The Leipzig tiles are an exception per definition. Although visually it looks like the road is on two spaces, it’s not. The road on the double Leipzig tiles is only on one space per definition.

Possibility 1: If a double tile is only for one half part of the surrounding spaces, the complete tile counts for that specific space it is extending:         





So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces, but some of them are extended. These extended spaces are only considered once for scoring.



Possibility 2: If a double tile is completely part of the surrounding spaces, it is overlapping two spaces and both of them are considered for scoring:



So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces. Both halves of the double tile are considered for scoring as they are both occupying a space.


That means for the examples from corinthiens 13:
1.   The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points (6 spaces according to the recent rule clarifications)
2.   Pink wagon may move anywhere on the German castle tile (according to Possibility 1)
3.   Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring (according to possibility 1)
4.   Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get points for the city on the German castle tile. (according to possibility 1)
5.   Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 10 surrounding spaces as he is on the German castle. The violet wagon may only move to 8 spaces surrounding the space he's on, but including the complete German castle tile that’s part of the 8 surrounding spaces. (according to possibility 1)
6.   Violet ringmaster is considering the 10 spaces around the German Castle tile, so including this circus tile (according to possibility 1)
7.   Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering all meeples on the 8 surrounding spaces and including the complete German castle tile because the tile is spartly overlapping one of the 8 surrounding spaces (according to possibility 1)
8.   Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the German castle tiles (according to possibility 2), and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles (per definition), and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
9.   Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (according to possibility 1)
10.   Black's watchtower is worth 5 points (according to possibility 2)

This is a possibility. My problem with this is that if the roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points, this means we are making a difference between the road segments based on their position on the German Castle tile (left example, only one of the two segments are counted, since they are on the same space, and right example, both of the two segments are counted since they are on two different spaces).

Then, why wouldn't we use se same mechanism for watchtower and consider only features that are directly on the 8 surrounding tiles? (+meeple on the german castle that is on both spaces)?
I think it'd be too strange to consider each feature on their specific space for road scoring, and then not for watchtower scoring  ???

Scoring of roads and cities has nothing to do with surrounding areas. The rules for roads say that you score 1 point for every space the road is passing through. So in this way the rules are applied perfectly. If it would be two seperate tiles, the scoring would be exactly the same. Don't let the German Castle tile confuse you. You are scoring a road, so that means 1 point per space the road is passing through.

For areas the rules are different. We have learnt from the rules with regards to tower ranges of flyer's directions that an area extends in a 90° direction when a double tile is involved. So that's my proposal, just extend the 8, 10 or 4 surrounding tiles with the second half of the double tile that is not strictly part of the surrounding spaces itself (also 90° to the other direction.

Offline Carcassonne93

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How many points does the upper road scores?

A similar question (only Base Game and Castles in Germany) should be asked to HiG.
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Offline Meepledrone

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How many points does the upper road scores?

A similar question (only Base Game and Castles in Germany) should be asked to HiG.

I did it this morning, although I'm still waiting for some clarifications about bazaars I posted last week... It seems they won't reply until Friday the soonest...
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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We got an answer from HiG last Friday, at last, about how to address these cases:



[Q6.1] Road #1 is worth 7 points (4 occupied spaces x 1 point per occupied space + 3 points for the German castle = 4 tiles x 1 point per tile + 3 points for the German castle).

But what about Road #2?
a) Road #2 is worth 9 points (6 occupied spaces x 1 point per occupied space + 3 points for the German castle). So each half of the German castle is counted individually, and the roads on the Leipzig tiles are an edge case for double-sized tiles.
b) Road #2 is worth 8 points (5 tiles x 1 point per tile + 3 points for the German castle). So double-sized tiles are considered as one single tile even if it contributes with two occupied spaces to the same road. This would be consistent with the case of the roads on the Leipzig tiles (two spaces occupied but scored as 1 actual tile).


[A6.1] Road #2 is worth 9 points. Leipzig is an edge case.

This means that features are scored by occupied square spaces (areas), even double-sized tiles (except those long roads on Leipzig tiles counted as 1 area). This would explain why two Halfling tiles sharing the same space are scored as one square tile.

The next step is clarifying how all this affects watchtowers. Since the source of the Jubilee River is a double-sized tile many interactions may happen involving this tile that will require a clarification such as watchtowers and ringmasters.  ;)

Offline corinthiens13

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Great, thanks for those clarifications!  :yellow-meeple:

And this may mean a double tile is indeed virtually separated, features on the left of the tile are on the left space, features on the right side of the tile are on the right space  ;)
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Offline Meepledrone

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Let's see if we can get this clarified. The road on the Leipzig tile is an exception as well as German castles... so far at least.

We would need to see what happens with watchtowers and castles... and the ringmaster and the big top

Offline Bumsakalaka

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So it's mean that red and black get both 9 points, right?

Offline Meepledrone

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Yes, we have to consider square spaces (areas) when scoring roads, so these roads are worth 9 points (6 square spaces x 1 point / space + 3 points for the German castle).

Notes:
* We are considering two spaces on the German castle due to the road segments connected to the road on different halves of the double-sized tile.
* The two halflings on the same square space (area) are considered as one occupied space (they would be equivalent to one square tile regarding scoring).
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 12:38:07 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Maybe we can call it squere area or for simple just square.
Anyway I liked previous appropach - per tiles (anyway used also in Leipzig currently named as edge case :D).


Offline Meepledrone

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For the time being, if we talk about tiles is simpler for everyone and more consistent with the wording in the rules, but:
* Two triangular tiles sharing the same square are considered one tile for scoring
* A double-sized tile counts as two tiles (one representing each half), except for the long road on a Leipzig tile (edge case).

There are some cases that need clarification regarding how to consider meeples and features on double-sized tiles when scoring watchtowers, German castles, ringmaster bonus, castles... just in case some other edge cases have to be considered:
* A watchtower scoring for roads involving double-sized tiles and halflings
* A watchtower scoring for meeples involving double-sized tiles (including German castles themselves), halflings and castles
* A ringmaster on a city, road or field on a double-sized tile (excluding the special case involving the long road on a Leipzig tile)
* A ringmaster on a German castle or a road on a Leipzig tile
* A castle overlapping a double-sized tile
* A ringmaster on a castle (just in case it is worth revisiting)
* A big top scoring involving meeples on double-sized tiles

As a final note, please notice the mixed behavior of double sized-tiles and halflings:
* Each tile counts individually when placing a figure or a token in 2. Placing a meeple.
* They are mapped to square spaces (areas) for scoring, trajectories (fliers), ranges (towers), dragon movement, fairy protection... even if an area includes two halflings or half a double-sized tile.

Offline corinthiens13

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For the time being, if we talk about tiles is simpler for everyone and more consistent with the wording in the rules, but:
* Two triangular tiles sharing the same square are considered one tile for scoring
* A double-sized tile counts as two tiles (one representing each half), except for the long road on a Leipzig tile (edge case).

There are some cases that need clarification regarding how to consider meeples and features on double-sized tiles when scoring watchtowers, German castles, ringmaster bonus, castles... just in case some other edge cases have to be considered:
* A watchtower scoring for roads involving double-sized tiles and halflings
* A watchtower scoring for meeples involving double-sized tiles (including German castles themselves), halflings and castles
* A ringmaster on a city, road or field on a double-sized tile (excluding the special case involving the long road on a Leipzig tile)
* A ringmaster on a German castle or a road on a Leipzig tile
* A castle overlapping a double-sized tile
* A ringmaster on a castle (just in case it is worth revisiting)
* A big top scoring involving meeples on double-sized tiles

As a final note, please notice the mixed behavior of double sized-tiles and halflings:
* Each tile counts individually when placing a figure or a token in 2. Placing a meeple.
* They are mapped to square spaces (areas) for scoring, trajectories (fliers), ranges (towers), dragon movement, fairy protection... even if an area includes two halflings or half a double-sized tile.

Well... For the sake of simplicity, I hope HiG is going to map everything into square spaces, for every step of the game, and consider the German Castle itself like a castle token, with 6 adjacent spaces  :yellow-meeple:


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