Author Topic: Clarification of rules (halflings & double-sized tiles) - with HiG - 21 01 2021  (Read 6068 times)

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
In recent days we got the following clarification from Freddy and Johannes (HiG) on the HiG Discord server.

These clarifications override a number of previous ones from 10/2015 about interactions with halflings and double-sized tiles. These outdated clarifications can be found here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.0

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON


Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.0
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 05:22:59 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Monasteries and halflings



[Q1.1] Are these monasteries completed?

[A1.1] Yes. And you get only 1 point for each occupied space (area), it doesn't matter how many halfling tiles are around the monastery. Each monastery is worth 9 Points.

It doesn't matter where the halfling tile is in the space (its position or rotation). For the monastery scoring, the halfling tile is considered as a normal tile.

If you want you can score a monastery like this:




« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 03:11:32 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Monasteries and double-sized tiles



[Q2] Can we assume that monasteries A and B also score 9 points?

[A2] Yes, they are also worth 9 points. You receive 1 point for each space around the monastery (8 points) and 1 point for the monastery itself.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Double-sized tiles, towers and fliers







[Q3.1] How should we consider double-sized tiles for towers and flying machines? Are these examples correct?
In the previous examples, each double-sized tile is assumed to count as one step (and therefore tile) for the tower and the flying machine, no matter the orientation of its placement.
The flier, when moving diagonally, is assumed to be able to occupy any feature on a tile in a straight  line. Double-sized tiles do not bend the trajectory of fliers as shown in the last image.
Are all these assumptions correct?


[A3.1] Most of your examples are  correct. Even if it is a double tile, you simply count the spaces (areas). A double tile still consists of 2 spaces. Therefore it doesn't matter if you use double-sized tiles or normal tiles for the tower, flying machine or a dragon, the "range" stays the same.

That's also why you will get 9 points for both monastaries in your example earlier.


Since ranges and trajectories are now based on square spaces, the following images show how towers and fliers should work now.
* The action range of a tower considerer square spaces and affects any tile overlapping that square space. Some tiles show two numbers as they overlap two square spaces. The tower will be able to capture a meeple from a double-sized tile as soon as one of its halves in in range.



* Fliers should consider square spaces in their trajectory and once decided the space, the meeple can be placed on any incomplete feature on the tile overlapping that space. So, as indicated also in a Q3.3, rolling 2 or 3 allows you to place a meeple on the double-sized tile overlapping those two square spaces.


 



[Q3.2] So, should we consider that we should always count spaces (areas) and not tiles, and then consider any tiles in that space if more than one or part of one?

[A3.2] Yes exactly. For example, a dragon could walk 2 steps on a double-sized tile, but if it is a German castle, it would already eat the meeple on his first step on the tile.

The dragon movement follows the grid of square spaces, so it moves one square space at a time. As a consequence, depending its movement, the dragon may require two steps to leave a double-sized tile. Here you can see how the dragon can move when landing on double-sized tile.



Note: The fairy placed on a double-sized tile will protect the whole tile, since the dragon can eat all the meeples and other flesh-and-blood figures placed on a double-sized tile as soon as it lands on it.





[Q3.3] So in the example below on this image, does this mean that you would land on the double-sized tile when you roll "2" or "3"?

[A3.3] Yes.

Ad indicated above, the meeple can be placed on any incomplete feature on the tile overlapping that space. So, rolling 2 or 3 allows you to place a meeple on the double-sized tile overlapping those two square spaces.





EDIT: Included comments with updated images.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 02:51:19 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Carcassonne93

  • Count
  • **
  • Posts: 337
  • Merit: 7
  • HiG must provide clarifications for all expansions
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia user page
I translate WikiCarpedia in Romanian, where I have over 20.000 edits. My WikiCarpedia user page: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/User:Carcassonne93. See at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Category:Finalizate the WikiCarpedia pages completely translated in Romanian.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Halfings revisited: dragon, scoring cities and roads, fields and barns



[Q4.1] So this would not apply either for halflings anymore?
This is part of the clarifications we got from Georg Wild in 10/2015
At that moment we were told that each tile counts separately for scoring (cities, roads, monasteries, German castles, German monasteries with meeples placed as an abbot...), towers, dragon, spreading the plague...
For example, as we currently understand it, Red would score 10 points for this city ( (4 tiles + 1 coat of arms) x 2 points = 10 points)



And Blue would score 5 points for this road (5 tiles x 1 point = 5 points)



Is this still okay? This is also what we understood from the rules: "If you complete a feature with half-sized tiles, it is scored according to the normal rules."


[A4.1] In this case the old clarification is outdated. The dragon could move 1 step further. Also your example would score 1 tile less. The halflings count as 1 occupied space (area).
Thanks for the questions there. We will make a clarification in the halfling rules as well, this is not clear right now.


The dragon will move taking into consideration the square grid, so it will stop once per square space no matter if it is occupied by two Halfling tiles. In this case, it will eat all the meeples and other flesh-and-blood figures on those tiles. The following image shows how the dragon moves in this case.



Note: As a consequence, the fairy placed on a triangular tile will protect the whole square space.

Applying the same grid-oriented logic in the clarifications, the scoring of city and the road will consider occupied spaces no matter if occupied by one or two tiles. So revisiting the previous examples we will have...



Red plays the Halfling tile completing his city. He scores 8 points, since the two triangular tiles are counted as one regular tile. The scoring considers a city with three regular tiles and 1 coat of arms.



Blue plays the Halfling tile completing his road. He scores 4 points, since the two triangular tiles are counted as one regular tile. The scoring considers a road with four regular tiles.



[Q4.2] So we have to swith to a grid-oriented approach... Even for cities and roads, right?
If so, the previous city is worth 8 points and the road 4 points (you score per occupied space)


[A4.2] Yes, exactly. Because in this way, we run into less problems. The monastery is not a edge case anymore.






[Q4.3] So this city is "incomplete", right? We have three cities here.

[A4.3] Yes, that's right.

A triangular gap is not important for a monastery but it is relevant for a city or a road





[Q4.4] What about fields? May I assume the Red meeples are on separate fields?

[A4.4] Yes.

A triangular gap splits fields.





[Q4.5] And what about this case? Example 1 shows 2 separate fields, but what about Example 2? Does the barn join both fields or is the barn present in two fields?

[A4.5] No, the barn can't be put there.

So barns can only be placed on an intersection fully occupied by tiles. No triangular gaps. This ensures the barn os always in one field.

The following images show valid placements for the barn marked with (A) and invalid placements marked with (B).

* Square and triangular tiles:


* Square, triangular and double-sized tiles:






EDIT: Included comments with updated images and examples.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 02:52:00 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Carcassonne93

  • Count
  • **
  • Posts: 337
  • Merit: 7
  • HiG must provide clarifications for all expansions
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia user page
It could be added a notice on MediaWiki:Anonnotice (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/MediaWiki:Anonnotice; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sitenotice) that a lot of rules should be updated.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Double sized-tiles, roads on City of Leipzig tiles, the dragon, towers and German monasteries



[Q5.1] In this case, the road on a City of Leipzig tile has to be counted as 2 points instead of 1 because road is on two "spaces"? The rules mention it is scored as one road segment... Does this still apply? Or should it be scored as two "spaces"?

[A5.1] The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)




[Q5.2] So the dragon for example affects the whole tile (except the interior of the Leipzig in this case) but considers each space individually when moving.
The same would happen to a tower range


[A5.2] Exactly

Check the additional question here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg75693#msg75693
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 01:41:11 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
It could be added a notice on MediaWiki:Anonnotice (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/MediaWiki:Anonnotice; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sitenotice) that a lot of rules should be updated.

Well, what do you think of all these changes? We are going back to the 2014 grid-oriented vision of the game for both halflings and double-sized tiles. Long live the occupied space!

Let's see what clarifications HiG introduces in the rules for Halflings.

I'll have to work an updated version of some images and review a number of C2 pages... I'll leave the C1 pages as is updated with the latest clarifications from 10/2015.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5116
  • Merit: 404
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4526.msg69843;topicseen#msg69843 and bridges with watchtowers?

I asked several questions combining minor expansions and they repeatedly told me the they won't answer those questions...

Regarding watchtowers, we will have to change our approach to features/meeples on the watchtower tile and all those tiles on its 8 adjacent spaces...

I couldn't ask about bridges and watchtowers either...

Although they are in my to-do list. Let's see how far we can get.

Offline Carcassonne93

  • Count
  • **
  • Posts: 337
  • Merit: 7
  • HiG must provide clarifications for all expansions
    • View Profile
    • WikiCarpedia user page
That means no clarifications for message 3 and meeples placed as abbots?

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 871
  • Merit: 46
    • View Profile
    • Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
Thanks Meepledrone for those clarifications! I think they will make the game easier to explain and understand  ;)

Especially for the barn!  :yellow-meeple:
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Offline Vital Pluymers

  • Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 166
  • Merit: 2
  • The King
    • View Profile
Thanks Meepledrone for those clarifications! I think they will make the game easier to explain and understand  ;)

Especially for the barn!  :yellow-meeple:

I can also live with these clarifications. Although they are completely different compared to what we applied before, they are easier to understand, to explain and to apply. It's only a pity that they are not consequent regarding the Market op Leipzig roads which are clearly on both halves of the double tiles.

There will be a lot of work to do for Meepledrone and his team now  :D

But honestly, is there anyone who can understand the behaviour and attitude of HiG in this matter? These topics are discussed on this forum already for years now. If they had any respect for their fanbase, why didn't they intervene and helped us spontanously?

There could be two options:
(i) They read it, saw it, but just didn't care.
(ii) They didn't read anything on this forum dedicated to Carcassonne
I don't know which option I would consider the worst...

I own more than 350 different games. Also with other games, sometimes I have questions concerning some rules. When you go to the forum of BGG, in 95% of the cases you can find the answers easily, mostly because the designers or publishers are participating on the forums and just clarify how the games should be played.
There were a few cases in which I could not find the answer. When I contacted the author or publisher, I always received a clear personal answer within a week!

On that same BGG site, as on many different other sites dedicated to boardgames, our forum and WICA are praised and linked as the holy bible of Carcassonne. Then can someone explain to me why HiG and their complete team let us struggle for so long with our questions? They should feel awfully ashamed!

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Duke Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 1527
  • Merit: 19
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
But honestly, is there anyone who can understand the behaviour and attitude of HiG in this matter? These topics are discussed on this forum already for years now. If they had any respect for their fanbase, why didn't they intervene and helped us spontanously?

There could be two options:
(i) They read it, saw it, but just didn't care.
(ii) They didn't read anything on this forum dedicated to Carcassonne
I don't know which option I would consider the worst...

I own more than 350 different games. Also with other games, sometimes I have questions concerning some rules. When you go to the forum of BGG, in 95% of the cases you can find the answers easily, mostly because the designers or publishers are participating on the forums and just clarify how the games should be played.
There were a few cases in which I could not find the answer. When I contacted the author or publisher, I always received a clear personal answer within a week!

On that same BGG site, as on many different other sites dedicated to boardgames, our forum and WICA are praised and linked as the holy bible of Carcassonne. Then can someone explain to me why HiG and their complete team let us struggle for so long with our questions? They should feel awfully ashamed!

This is good question to Hig but also to Klaus-J├╝rgen Wrede.
It will be good to ask them in some video interview  >:D

Offline Dkmvs

  • Freeman
  • ****
  • Posts: 62
  • Merit: 4
  • Just lurking around..
    • View Profile
Hey everyone, new to the game since 2 weeks, and have been lurking here since then. I have a question, which may be nothing to point out but:


This isn't possible in a real game right? Since it doesn't connect (since a halfling always has to connect with a flat side to another tile)

Shouldn't it be like this then?:


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
Clarification of rules (fields & magic portals) - with HiG - 29 01 2021

Started by Meepledrone

9 Replies
930 Views
Last post January 31, 2021, 11:21:18 AM
by DIN0
xx
Clarification of rules (roads, bridges, inns & tollhouses) - with HiG - 05 01 2021

Started by Meepledrone

4 Replies
664 Views
Last post January 06, 2021, 04:21:09 AM
by Meepledrone
xx
Clarification of rules (acrobats & phantoms, Leipzig) - with HiG - 21-25 06 2021

Started by Meepledrone

9 Replies
539 Views
Last post July 21, 2021, 01:59:05 AM
by Meepledrone
xx
Can a Dragon knock off a double sized Meeple?

Started by LilliB

5 Replies
1019 Views
Last post February 21, 2020, 12:57:04 PM
by Meepledrone
xx
Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021

Started by Meepledrone

40 Replies
2184 Views
Last post November 20, 2021, 07:21:11 AM
by Carcassonne93