Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: Meepledrone on January 27, 2021, 12:49:22 PM
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In recent days we got the following clarification from Freddy and Johannes (HiG) on the HiG Discord server.
These clarifications override a number of previous ones from 10/2015 about interactions with halflings and double-sized tiles. These outdated clarifications can be found here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=2125.0)
Following Kettlefish's tradition...
Question in BLUE
Answer in GREEN
Still open in RED
My own comments in MAROON
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Monasteries and halflings
(https://i.imgur.com/1F4w5vJ.png)(https://i.imgur.com/f501wTL.png)
[Q1.1] Are these monasteries completed?
[A1.1] Yes. And you get only 1 point for each occupied space (area), it doesn't matter how many halfling tiles are around the monastery. Each monastery is worth 9 Points.
It doesn't matter where the halfling tile is in the space (its position or rotation). For the monastery scoring, the halfling tile is considered as a normal tile.
If you want you can score a monastery like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/UEfzLGx.png)
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Monasteries and double-sized tiles
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/0/0e/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Cloister_Example_01.png)
[Q2] Can we assume that monasteries A and B also score 9 points?
[A2] Yes, they are also worth 9 points. You receive 1 point for each space around the monastery (8 points) and 1 point for the monastery itself.
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Double-sized tiles, towers and fliers
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/a/a2/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Tower_Example_01.jpg)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/5/5d/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Flier_Example_01.png)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/9/90/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Flier_Example_02.png)
[Q3.1] How should we consider double-sized tiles for towers and flying machines? Are these examples correct?
In the previous examples, each double-sized tile is assumed to count as one step (and therefore tile) for the tower and the flying machine, no matter the orientation of its placement.
The flier, when moving diagonally, is assumed to be able to occupy any feature on a tile in a straight line. Double-sized tiles do not bend the trajectory of fliers as shown in the last image.
Are all these assumptions correct?
[A3.1] Most of your examples are correct. Even if it is a double tile, you simply count the spaces (areas). A double tile still consists of 2 spaces. Therefore it doesn't matter if you use double-sized tiles or normal tiles for the tower, flying machine or a dragon, the "range" stays the same.
That's also why you will get 9 points for both monastaries in your example earlier.
Since ranges and trajectories are now based on square spaces, the following images show how towers and fliers should work now.
* The action range of a tower considerer square spaces and affects any tile overlapping that square space. Some tiles show two numbers as they overlap two square spaces. The tower will be able to capture a meeple from a double-sized tile as soon as one of its halves in in range.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/1/18/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Tower_Example_01_2021.jpg)
* Fliers should consider square spaces in their trajectory and once decided the space, the meeple can be placed on any incomplete feature on the tile overlapping that space. So, as indicated also in a Q3.3, rolling 2 or 3 allows you to place a meeple on the double-sized tile overlapping those two square spaces.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/3/35/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Flier_Example_01_2021.jpg)
[Q3.2] So, should we consider that we should always count spaces (areas) and not tiles, and then consider any tiles in that space if more than one or part of one?
[A3.2] Yes exactly. For example, a dragon could walk 2 steps on a double-sized tile, but if it is a German castle, it would already eat the meeple on his first step on the tile.
The dragon movement follows the grid of square spaces, so it moves one square space at a time. As a consequence, depending its movement, the dragon may require two steps to leave a double-sized tile. Here you can see how the dragon can move when landing on double-sized tile.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/4/40/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Dragon_Example_01_2021.jpg)(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/1/11/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Dragon_Example_02_2021.jpg)(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/a/a0/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Dragon_Example_03_2021.jpg)
Note: The fairy placed on a double-sized tile will protect the whole tile, since the dragon can eat all the meeples and other flesh-and-blood figures placed on a double-sized tile as soon as it lands on it.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/5/5d/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Flier_Example_01.png)
[Q3.3] So in the example below on this image, does this mean that you would land on the double-sized tile when you roll "2" or "3"?
[A3.3] Yes.
Ad indicated above, the meeple can be placed on any incomplete feature on the tile overlapping that space. So, rolling 2 or 3 allows you to place a meeple on the double-sized tile overlapping those two square spaces.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/3/35/German_Castles_C2_Clarification_Flier_Example_01_2021.jpg)
EDIT: Included comments with updated images.
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http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4526.msg69843;topicseen#msg69843 and bridges with watchtowers?
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Halfings revisited: dragon, scoring cities and roads, fields and barns
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/d/db/Halflings_C1_Clarification_Dragon_Example_01.jpg)
[Q4.1] So this would not apply either for halflings anymore?
This is part of the clarifications we got from Georg Wild in 10/2015
At that moment we were told that each tile counts separately for scoring (cities, roads, monasteries, German castles, German monasteries with meeples placed as an abbot...), towers, dragon, spreading the plague...
For example, as we currently understand it, Red would score 10 points for this city ( (4 tiles + 1 coat of arms) x 2 points = 10 points)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/2/2d/Halflings_C2_Clarification_City_Example_02.jpg)
And Blue would score 5 points for this road (5 tiles x 1 point = 5 points)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/3/36/Halflings_C2_Clarification_Road_Example_01.jpg)
Is this still okay? This is also what we understood from the rules: "If you complete a feature with half-sized tiles, it is scored according to the normal rules."
[A4.1] In this case the old clarification is outdated. The dragon could move 1 step further. Also your example would score 1 tile less. The halflings count as 1 occupied space (area).
Thanks for the questions there. We will make a clarification in the halfling rules as well, this is not clear right now.
The dragon will move taking into consideration the square grid, so it will stop once per square space no matter if it is occupied by two Halfling tiles. In this case, it will eat all the meeples and other flesh-and-blood figures on those tiles. The following image shows how the dragon moves in this case.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/f/f1/Halflings_C2_Clarification_Dragon_Example_01_2021.jpg)
Note: As a consequence, the fairy placed on a triangular tile will protect the whole square space.
Applying the same grid-oriented logic in the clarifications, the scoring of city and the road will consider occupied spaces no matter if occupied by one or two tiles. So revisiting the previous examples we will have...
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/2/25/Halflings_C2_Clarification_City_Example_02.png)
Red plays the Halfling tile completing his city. He scores 8 points, since the two triangular tiles are counted as one regular tile. The scoring considers a city with three regular tiles and 1 coat of arms.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/d/d3/Halflings_C2_Clarification_Road_Example_01.png)
Blue plays the Halfling tile completing his road. He scores 4 points, since the two triangular tiles are counted as one regular tile. The scoring considers a road with four regular tiles.
[Q4.2] So we have to swith to a grid-oriented approach... Even for cities and roads, right?
If so, the previous city is worth 8 points and the road 4 points (you score per occupied space)
[A4.2] Yes, exactly. Because in this way, we run into less problems. The monastery is not a edge case anymore.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/d/de/Halflings_C2_Clarification_City_Example_01b.jpg)
[Q4.3] So this city is "incomplete", right? We have three cities here.
[A4.3] Yes, that's right.
A triangular gap is not important for a monastery but it is relevant for a city or a road
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/c/c7/Halflings_C2_Clarification_Farm_Example_01.jpg)
[Q4.4] What about fields? May I assume the Red meeples are on separate fields?
[A4.4] Yes.
A triangular gap splits fields.
(https://i.imgur.com/h0LcYQY.png)
[Q4.5] And what about this case? Example 1 shows 2 separate fields, but what about Example 2? Does the barn join both fields or is the barn present in two fields?
[A4.5] No, the barn can't be put there.
So barns can only be placed on an intersection fully occupied by tiles. No triangular gaps. This ensures the barn os always in one field.
The following images show valid placements for the barn marked with (A) and invalid placements marked with (B).
* Square and triangular tiles:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/4/46/Halflings_C2_Clarification_Barn_Example_01_2021.jpg)
* Square, triangular and double-sized tiles:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/7/79/Halflings_C2_Clarification_Barn_Example_02_2021.jpg)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/1/1a/Halflings_C2_Clarification_Barn_Example_03_2021.jpg)
EDIT: Included comments with updated images and examples.
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It could be added a notice on MediaWiki:Anonnotice (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/MediaWiki:Anonnotice; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sitenotice) that a lot of rules should be updated.
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Double sized-tiles, roads on City of Leipzig tiles, the dragon, towers and German monasteries
(https://i.imgur.com/z11c88N.png)
[Q5.1] In this case, the road on a City of Leipzig tile has to be counted as 2 points instead of 1 because road is on two "spaces"? The rules mention it is scored as one road segment... Does this still apply? Or should it be scored as two "spaces"?
[A5.1] In C2, the rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring in C2, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)
In C3, this road segment counts as 2 tiles in all cases.
In C2, there were no other roads spanning across multiple square spaces on a tile, so HiG ruled that the long road on the Leipzig tiles was scored as 1 tile.
In C3, with the addition of the wonder tiles with cities and roads spanning across multiple square spaces, this decision was revised so the Leipzig long road on the Leipzig tiles now count as 2 tiles. So, the special case defined in C2 is now discarded.
Note: This clarification has been updated to cover the rules change considered for C3, where the road on the Leipzig tiles are not a special case anymore.
[Q5.2] So the dragon for example affects the whole tile (except the interior of the Leipzig in this case) but considers each space individually when moving.
The same would happen to a tower range
[A5.2] Exactly
Check the additional question here:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg75693#msg75693 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg75693#msg75693)
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It could be added a notice on MediaWiki:Anonnotice (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/MediaWiki:Anonnotice; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sitenotice) that a lot of rules should be updated.
Well, what do you think of all these changes? We are going back to the 2014 grid-oriented vision of the game for both halflings and double-sized tiles. Long live the occupied space!
Let's see what clarifications HiG introduces in the rules for Halflings.
I'll have to work an updated version of some images and review a number of C2 pages... I'll leave the C1 pages as is updated with the latest clarifications from 10/2015.
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http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4526.msg69843;topicseen#msg69843 and bridges with watchtowers?
I asked several questions combining minor expansions and they repeatedly told me the they won't answer those questions...
Regarding watchtowers, we will have to change our approach to features/meeples on the watchtower tile and all those tiles on its 8 adjacent spaces...
I couldn't ask about bridges and watchtowers either...
Although they are in my to-do list. Let's see how far we can get.
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That means no clarifications for message 3 and meeples placed as abbots?
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Thanks Meepledrone for those clarifications! I think they will make the game easier to explain and understand ;)
Especially for the barn! :yellow-meeple:
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Thanks Meepledrone for those clarifications! I think they will make the game easier to explain and understand ;)
Especially for the barn! :yellow-meeple:
I can also live with these clarifications. Although they are completely different compared to what we applied before, they are easier to understand, to explain and to apply. It's only a pity that they are not consequent regarding the Market op Leipzig roads which are clearly on both halves of the double tiles.
There will be a lot of work to do for Meepledrone and his team now :D
But honestly, is there anyone who can understand the behaviour and attitude of HiG in this matter? These topics are discussed on this forum already for years now. If they had any respect for their fanbase, why didn't they intervene and helped us spontanously?
There could be two options:
(i) They read it, saw it, but just didn't care.
(ii) They didn't read anything on this forum dedicated to Carcassonne
I don't know which option I would consider the worst...
I own more than 350 different games. Also with other games, sometimes I have questions concerning some rules. When you go to the forum of BGG, in 95% of the cases you can find the answers easily, mostly because the designers or publishers are participating on the forums and just clarify how the games should be played.
There were a few cases in which I could not find the answer. When I contacted the author or publisher, I always received a clear personal answer within a week!
On that same BGG site, as on many different other sites dedicated to boardgames, our forum and WICA are praised and linked as the holy bible of Carcassonne. Then can someone explain to me why HiG and their complete team let us struggle for so long with our questions? They should feel awfully ashamed!
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But honestly, is there anyone who can understand the behaviour and attitude of HiG in this matter? These topics are discussed on this forum already for years now. If they had any respect for their fanbase, why didn't they intervene and helped us spontanously?
There could be two options:
(i) They read it, saw it, but just didn't care.
(ii) They didn't read anything on this forum dedicated to Carcassonne
I don't know which option I would consider the worst...
I own more than 350 different games. Also with other games, sometimes I have questions concerning some rules. When you go to the forum of BGG, in 95% of the cases you can find the answers easily, mostly because the designers or publishers are participating on the forums and just clarify how the games should be played.
There were a few cases in which I could not find the answer. When I contacted the author or publisher, I always received a clear personal answer within a week!
On that same BGG site, as on many different other sites dedicated to boardgames, our forum and WICA are praised and linked as the holy bible of Carcassonne. Then can someone explain to me why HiG and their complete team let us struggle for so long with our questions? They should feel awfully ashamed!
This is good question to Hig but also to Klaus-Jürgen Wrede.
It will be good to ask them in some video interview >:D
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Hey everyone, new to the game since 2 weeks, and have been lurking here since then. I have a question, which may be nothing to point out but:
(https://i.imgur.com/UEfzLGx.png)
This isn't possible in a real game right? Since it doesn't connect (since a halfling always has to connect with a flat side to another tile)
Shouldn't it be like this then?:
(https://imgur.com/TLdLCQk.jpg)
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Yes you are rights. It's just "crop" of 9 tiles possitions from whole game.
As you mention, topleft regular tile can not stand this way alone.
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Hi Dkmvs!
Welcome to the forum.
You arrived in as sweet moment as many somewhat long-standing issues were revisited again yesterday! Now you can have fun with your halflings and mix them with German castles of the Markets of Leipzig and have a solution for any issues. ;)
I see you just entered this vast world of Carcassonne. Let us know what are youe expectations and what type of Carcassonne colletion you would like to build... ;D
Cheers!
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I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:
A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).
It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).
Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). :yellow-meeple:
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In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile
So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).
The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... :o
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I think I understand most of this information but let me see if I can word it in a different to show whether or not I understand it. Regarding two halflings tiles with a connected road in a “space” or a road that crosses both halves of a double tile scoring one point. I think of it this way, each “tile” scores one point per road / city segment BUT each “space” can only score a MAX of one point. This explains two halfling tiles with a connected road in one space being worth 1 point total. This explains the road on one of the market spaces being worth one point. You’re adhering to the one point per “tile” rule without violating the max one point per “space” rule. The key word is “max” implying a space can score less than one point on average (0.5 in the case of a double tile). Of course this assumes we’re talking about incomplete features. If we’re talking about a completed city, for instance, you’d double the number as per usual. So that’d be two points per tile but a max 2 points per space.
Have I made sense of these recent clarifications.
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In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile
So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).
The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... :o
Yes, the result is the same. I prefer the wording below because it allows to keep the word "tile" in the rules and scorings, same as what the official rules do :yellow-meeple:
I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:
A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).
It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).
Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). :yellow-meeple:
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I think I understand most of this information but let me see if I can word it in a different to show whether or not I understand it. Regarding two halflings tiles with a connected road in a “space” or a road that crosses both halves of a double tile scoring one point. I think of it this way, each “tile” scores one point per road / city segment BUT each “space” can only score a MAX of one point. This explains two halfling tiles with a connected road in one space being worth 1 point total. This explains the road on one of the market spaces being worth one point. You’re adhering to the one point per “tile” rule without violating the max one point per “space” rule. The key word is “max” implying a space can score less than one point on average (0.5 in the case of a double tile). Of course this assumes we’re talking about incomplete features. If we’re talking about a completed city, for instance, you’d double the number as per usual. So that’d be two points per tile but a max 2 points per space.
Have I made sense of these recent clarifications.
This approach about capping the number of points per tile can be a bit complicated, since a road or a city on a halfling can be also affected by inns, German cathedrals,... and by coats of arms, cathedrals, sieges,.. respectively. So keeping control of the maximum number of points per tile in one space can be more complex than counting occupied spaces (no matter the number tiles in it)...
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In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile
So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).
The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... :o
Yes, the result is the same. I prefer the wording below because it allows to keep the word "tile" in the rules and scorings, same as what the official rules do :yellow-meeple:
I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:
A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).
It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).
Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). :yellow-meeple:
Keeping the wording simple... Not an easy task, huh? >:D
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Keeping the wording simple... Not an easy task, huh? >:D
Not at all! :-\ But we have an awesome team here :yellow-meeple:
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In my mind, I think of occupied spaces by:
* 1 halfling tile
* 2 haflings tiles
* 1 square tile
* 1 double-sized tile
So the mechanics address occupied spaces, but affect all the tiles overlapping that space.
- You score by occupied space (normally equivalent to a [square] tile)
- Adjacency is based on tiles overlapping an adjacent space to a given one.
- Ranges based on spaces and the action involved (deploying a meeple, capturing a meeple, moving the dragon) affects any tile overlapping that space. For eaxmple, the dragon would eat all the meeples on a double-sized tile as soon as it reaches the tile, but each half of the tile will be considered individually for its movement (you allways follow the underlying square grid).
The Reference Pages were using "tile" (basic case) or "occupied space" (with halflings and/or double-sized tiles) depending on the expansion selected. I will have to revisit everything... :o
Yes, the result is the same. I prefer the wording below because it allows to keep the word "tile" in the rules and scorings, same as what the official rules do :yellow-meeple:
I used this wording on my French order of play, seemed easy enough to understand, and replaces tons of clarifications:
A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings).
A double-tile is considered as two tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces).
It's a bit like saying a tile = a square space for actions and evaluations (double tile = 2 tiles, two halflings in a single space = 1 tile).
Clarifying it like this allowed me to then keep the word "tile" for the rest of the rules and the scorings, as this is the word used by the official rules (road = 1 point per tile, city = 2 points per tile). :yellow-meeple:
Keeping the wording simple... Not an easy task, huh? >:D
I believe the wording of corinthiens13 is easier to comprehend.
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Double sized-tiles, roads on City of Leipzig tiles, the dragon, towers and German monasteries
(https://i.imgur.com/z11c88N.png)
[Q5.1] In this case, the road on a City of Leipzig tile has to be counted as 2 points instead of 1 because road is on two "spaces"? The rules mention it is scored as one road segment... Does this still apply? Or should it be scored as two "spaces"?
[A5.1] The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)
[Q5.2] So the dragon for example affects the whole tile (except the interior of the Leipzig in this case) but considers each space individually when moving.
The same would happen to a tower range
[A5.2] Exactly
A road that starts at the first square half of a German castle tile and ends at the second square half of the German castle tile scores 1 point for both road segments from the double tile?
There is a meeple on a German castle tile, on the second half of the double tile. The dragon moves on the first half of the double tile. The dragon eats that meeple? Also, a meeple placed on a German castle is eaten when the dragon is placed on any of the halves and can be captured when the range of a tower reaches both halves A meeple placed on a German castle is still considered by the watchtowers (2 points for each meeple)?
If the fairy is placed on a double tile, it protects the whole double tile?
If you land on a German castle tile, you can land on any square half of the double tile, even if the other square half it cannot be directly reached even if you roll 1, 2 or 3?
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Double sized-tiles, roads on City of Leipzig tiles, the dragon, towers and German monasteries
(https://i.imgur.com/z11c88N.png)
[Q5.1] In this case, the road on a City of Leipzig tile has to be counted as 2 points instead of 1 because road is on two "spaces"? The rules mention it is scored as one road segment... Does this still apply? Or should it be scored as two "spaces"?
[A5.1] The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)
[Q5.2] So the dragon for example affects the whole tile (except the interior of the Leipzig in this case) but considers each space individually when moving.
The same would happen to a tower range
[A5.2] Exactly
A road that starts at the first square half of a German castle tile and ends at the second square half of the German castle tile scores 1 point for both road segments from the double tile?
Yes, as both spaces are counted (or both tiles if using my wording)
There is a meeple on a German castle tile, on the second half of the double tile. The dragon moves on the first half of the double tile. The dragon eats that meeple? Also, a meeple placed on a German castle is eaten when the dragon is placed on any of the halves and can be captured when the range of a tower reaches both halves A meeple placed on a German castle is still considered by the watchtowers (2 points for each meeple)?
If the fairy is placed on a double tile, it protects the whole double tile?
If you land on a German castle tile, you can land on any square half of the double tile, even if the other square half it cannot be directly reached even if you roll 1, 2 or 3?
I'd say yes for all.
A double tile is considered as two tiles, but both are affected by any action affecting one of them.
Two halflings are considered as one tile, they're both affected by any action affecting one of them.
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A wagon considers (when it is moved) both square halves of a double tile, even if not both square halves are adjacent with the wagon (the 9 square spaces)?
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A wagon considers (when it is moved) both square halves of a double tile, even if not both square halves are adjacent with the wagon (the 9 square spaces)?
As I understand HiG's clarification, after all, the tile split has an effect when we are scoring something and when we are performing an action (dragon movement, wagon range defining, placing gold piece range defining, Vodyanoy range defining, flying machines dice counting, plague spread, tower range counting). But if the effect of any of those actions affects part of a double tile, the other part is affected too (flying machine landing, dragon eating, fairy protection, vodyanoy capture, tower capture, plague removing meeple, wagon movement, gold piece taking...etc).
For the wagon, I'd say anywhere he is on the double tile, he can move to the 12 adjacent tiles. And if he's on a tile neighboring part of a double tile, he can go anywhere on the double tile.
What do you think?
This wording could still work properly, maybe with some more examples to make it more clear:
A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings for example).
A double-tile is considered as two different tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it, or two points from the flying machine's dice for example), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces, a meeple landing on a part of a double tile with a flying machine may be placed anywhere on the double tile).
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Well it's good to define adjacent tiles for feature tile as key word for rules.
Then adjacent tiles for monastery 9
Adjacent tiles for Double sides tiles 12
Adjacent tiles for Castle 6.
Anyway where can goes wagon When scoring Castle in C2 rules?
By mine deduction to any of 6 adjacent tiles.
This logic can be used for Ringmaster etc. For Variant where Ringmaster still can get his bonus.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
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I think that WikiCarpedia should describe interactions with 1. double tiles and halflings and 2. flying machines, bathhouses, ringmaster bonuses, dragon, towers, watchtowers, plague, special monasteries, gold ingots, castles, German castles, acrobats, circus and barns on a page named "Special-sized tiles".
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Hurrah for common sense. Until another representative gives different answers in 3 years time.
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Let's cross our fingers and sleeve our tiles! >:D
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It could be added a notice on MediaWiki:Anonnotice (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/MediaWiki:Anonnotice; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sitenotice) that a lot of rules should be updated.
WikiCarpedia is in air, and the readers still read the not updated rules.
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I know...
Halflings and double-sized tiles can be reviewed. I'll redo some images.
But some changes have a huge impact and before applying them we have to be sure.
- Handling of scoring events during turn sequence
- Review of messages and robbers accordingly
If we could live with this for several years without knowing, we can wait a little longer. I'll keep it on hold until we have a coherent clarification.
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It will be good to write some Header over all pages that some review is required during new Hig Rules Clarrification which have to been prooven but some other HiG rules speaker, if for Johanes is Carcassonne a "Precambrian game" :(
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I think that WikiCarpedia should describe interactions with 1. double tiles and halflings and 2. flying machines, bathhouses, ringmaster bonuses, dragon, towers, watchtowers, plague, special monasteries, gold ingots, castles, German castles, acrobats, circus and barns on a page named "Special-sized tiles".
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany#Other_expansions: WikiCarpedia should describe all these cases with images.
I would appreciate an official clarification about wagons placed on a road from a German castle tile.
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Thanks for the suggestion!
In the meantime I have updated the following pages to include the clarifications in this topic. More to come soon.
* C2 Halflings:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings)
* C2 German castles:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany)
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes)
All your comments are welcome.
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Well done @Meepledrone .
Maybe it will be good also to show shrine monastery combat for Halflimgs, that adjacent tiles mean adjacent space, or?
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
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Added some comments with images to illustrate the clarifications. Check these posts:
* Tower range and flier range:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg74236#msg74236 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg74236#msg74236)
* Dragon movement, city and road scoring, and barn placment:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg74239#msg74239 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg74239#msg74239)
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Thanks for the suggestion!
In the meantime I have updated the following pages to include the clarifications in this topic. More to come soon.
* C2 Halflings:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings)
* C2 German castles:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany)
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes)
All your comments are welcome.
Very nice job, Meepledrone!
I have to admit that these new rules regarding tiles versus spaces solve a lot of issues and are much easier to interpret and to apply.
So, it is definitely an improvement.
Now, if HiG would also reconsider the ringmaster rules, maybe I can start to like them a little bit after all >:D
A small remark about the German Castle rules:
Scoring of a completed castle
A castle can be completed and scored the same way as monasteries. As soon as the castle is surrounded by other Land tiles, you, the lord gets 12 points and take your meeple back to your stash.
At the end of the game all Land tiles surrounding an incomplete castle score one point. The Castle tile itself counts as 2 points.
That last line is incorrect as two halfling tiles on the same surrounding space would still only score 1 point.
Wouldn't it be more correct to also use spaces in these rules:
Scoring of a completed castle
A castle can be completed and scored the same way as monasteries. As soon as the spaces surrounding the castle are occupied by other Land tiles, you, the lord gets 12 points and take your meeple back to your stash.
At the end of the game all spaces occupied by land tiles surrounding an incomplete castle score one point. The Castle tile itself counts as 2 points.
I know you have explained it thoroughly in the Halfling rules, but I think it's better also to include the interaction with Halflings also in the German Castle rules.
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The German castle rules are okay if you consider that they only consider square tiles.
If you check all the rules even for the base game with Halflings in mind, you will find them all incorrect. Bear in mind that the rules always speak of square tiles (and the translation to occupied spaces happens when triangular and double-sized tiles get into the picture...) It would require to rewrite all the pages with this in mind.
Now we have one or two tiles occupying one square space and one tile occupying two square spaces... We have to think of mechanics considering square spaces and affecting all the tiles overlapping a given square space, even if the tiles overflows the square space. Rewording everything would make everything correct (for the time being) but messy for the non-initiated player in this semantic finesse. This 5% of the game may drive crazy the 99% of the players.
So far we are containing all these implications to the pages about with Halflings and German Castles. We should include a hint in Markets of Leipzig too or, as Carcassonne93 suggested, create a page dealing with special tiles and include all the clarifications there. So you would find the answer to scoring a German castle with Halflings in the Halflings page.
However, you may find a situations like this one that it is not even considered in the German castle rules, since minor expansions don't know each other... >:D
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The German castle rules are okay if you consider that they only consider square tiles.
If you check all the rules even for the base game with Halflings in mind, you will find them all incorrect. Bear in mind that the rules always speak of square tiles (and the translation to occupied spaces happens when triangular and double-sized tiles get into the picture...) It would require to rewrite all the pages with this in mind.
Now we have one or two tiles occupying one square space and one tile occupying two square spaces... We have to think of mechanics considering square spaces and affecting all the tiles overlapping a given square space, even if the tiles overflows the square space. Rewording everything would make everything correct (for the time being) but messy for the non-initiated player in this semantic finesse. This 5% of the game may drive crazy the 99% of the players.
So far we are containing all these implications to the pages about with Halflings and German Castles. We should include a hint in Markets of Leipzig too or, as Carcassonne93 suggested, create a page dealing with special tiles and include all the clarifications there. So you would find the answer to scoring a German castle with Halflings in the Halflings page.
However, you may find a situations like this one that it is not even considered in the German castle rules, since minor expansions don't know each other... >:D
Again, that is why I think it would be simplier to word halfling and double tiles clarifications like this:
A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings for example).
A double-tile is considered as two different tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it, or two points from the flying machine's dice for example), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces, a meeple landing on a part of a double tile with a flying machine may be placed anywhere on the double tile).
That way, all of the other rules would be correct for both initiated and non initiated players, without adding further clarifications :yellow-meeple:
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Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. ;)
However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.
As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...
We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space?
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?
Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.
Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?
Any thoughts?
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HiG answer will be: N/A - Prime directive Mini - Mini.
I guess to not complicate it. If for rules of length it's 1 points, than also for Watchtower it's one road segment.
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Did you notice option B) was my favorite? ;)
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But in the case of Wainwrights quarter and Bookbinders quarter, the "1 points for each tile with city" watchtower should receive 2 points.
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How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).
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Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. ;)
However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.
Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below :yellow-meeple:
As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...
We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space?
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?
Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.
Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?
Any thoughts?
For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.
How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).
The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?
Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mZwGC47F3lM712zaiPhVaYoDqWV6jnxMz0cqMG11cO90PqGyNPJC7ZLWHMXLUWZW_Q5KTJbefPRelZOrt-jrCSDHP3MEFW-7qRoWzyrSssptt29KIkoDNuyypwG2ncZ_fDikHn1g6c3kMVppECAwIdVjq3-gGSRqafeVDKICtk2VhCxGLJ-QkzCa4s9Gl7X94?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)
Based on WICA, we already know that:
- When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
- Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road
Then, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...
Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
- Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
- Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
- Yellow watchtower is worth 6 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
- Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
- Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
- Black's watchtower is worth 5 points
Option B: We consider the whole double tile
- Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
- Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
- Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
- Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
- Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
- Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)
I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.
Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...
What do you think?
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- Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
10 points.
WikiCarpedia should describe all these cases on a dedicated page, and marking these examples with IconPadlock (see https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Icons and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Template:IconPadlock).
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Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. ;)
However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.
Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below :yellow-meeple:
As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...
We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space?
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?
Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.
Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?
Any thoughts?
For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.
How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).
The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?
Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mZwGC47F3lM712zaiPhVaYoDqWV6jnxMz0cqMG11cO90PqGyNPJC7ZLWHMXLUWZW_Q5KTJbefPRelZOrt-jrCSDHP3MEFW-7qRoWzyrSssptt29KIkoDNuyypwG2ncZ_fDikHn1g6c3kMVppECAwIdVjq3-gGSRqafeVDKICtk2VhCxGLJ-QkzCa4s9Gl7X94?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)
Based on WICA, we already know that:
- When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
- Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road
Then, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...
Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
- Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
- Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
- Yellow watchtower is worth 3 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
- Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
- Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
- Black's watchtower is worth 5 points
Option B: We consider the whole double tile
- Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
- Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
- Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
- Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
- Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
- Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)
I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.
Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...
What do you think?
I don't like option A at all...
I would choose option B with the green rules. That seems to be consequent with the rules of dragon movement and occupied spaces in general. You always consider spaces around the tile: normally 9, 12 for German castles and 6 for castles. If one of the spaces contains a double tile that extends that surrounding space to the outside, that part of the double tile is considered too.
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"The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)"
"But for every other scoring"
"WICA: When scoring a monastery adjacent to one or more double-sized tiles, the monastery will consider the occupied square spaces (areas) adjacent to it. An double-sized tile adjacent to a monastery may then occupy 1 or 2 spaces. As a result a completed monastery will always score 9 points and an incomplete monastery will score 1 point for space occupied the monastery and 1 point per adjacent occupied space.
Note: The same considerations should be applied when removing and scoring an abbot, and the scoring of all other monastic buildings: abbeys, shrines, German monasteries / Japanese Buildings / Dutch & Belgian monasteries with monks, Darmstadt churches."
Until HiG will provide clarifications for all cases (probably never or after some years), the player should choose the variant that considers valid.
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Ha ha ha! I was preparing an example based on Carcassonne93's image....
Regarding your example, my understanding is closer to your option B. The road segment scores as one tile always, otherwise, HiG would have drawn a separation line on the tile. They initially considered adding this splitting line for German castles, but in the end they removed it, so double-sized tiles should be considered as a whole, like all or nothing.
Therefore, if one of the square spaces occupied by a double-sized tile is involved in a mechanic, the whole tile is affected. This behavior was confirmed for the dragon, towers and fliers, so it should be a general rule for any tiles overlapping a given square space: a regular tile, one or two triangular tiles or a double-sized tile...
Regarding watchtower scoring, you would have to consider the watchtower tile (trivial case since there are not watchtowers in other tile geometries) and all those tiles overlapping the adjacent 8 square spaces. So,
* The minimum unit of evaluation for features or meeples is a square space occupied by one regular tile, one triangular tile or two triangular tiles treated as one square tile.
* Double-sized tiles have to be considered as one tile even if they occupy two spaces. The tile will have to be considered this way since there is no splitting line (all-or-nothing policy), and you should be scoring the same tile only once (as for any other feature... German cathedrals represent an exception confirming the rule ;)).
I know all this may sound complicated to explain, but it works consistently. If you use a wording based on tiles you would have edge cases:
* Two triangular tiles can be considered merged into a square tile
* Double-sized tiles are considered as one tile because you cannot split it with an imaginary line.
So following with your examples, I choose option B with a few changes:
Option B (with comments): We consider the whole double tile:
* Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles (even the city segment at the far end)
* Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
* Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get a point for the city on the german castle tile
* Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too (this is an easy adaptation, but if it is accepted for castles, this should be valid too).
* Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles) - (This is a loophole in the ringmaster rules since, we are scoring a city on a non-square tile--- Ooooops! With current rules the ringmaster shouldn't get bonus points due to the geometry of the tile)
* Yellow watchtower is worth 5 x 2 = 10 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile (each meeple is worth 2 points)
* Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (double-sized tiles are considered once, and each one gets 1 point for featuring at least one road segment).
* Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (each double sized-tile is considered once and you get one point for each tile featuring at least one city segment)
* Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (each double sized-tile is considered once and you get one point for each tile featuring at least one city segment)
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Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. ;)
However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.
Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below :yellow-meeple:
As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...
We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space?
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?
Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.
Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?
Any thoughts?
For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.
How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).
The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?
Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mZwGC47F3lM712zaiPhVaYoDqWV6jnxMz0cqMG11cO90PqGyNPJC7ZLWHMXLUWZW_Q5KTJbefPRelZOrt-jrCSDHP3MEFW-7qRoWzyrSssptt29KIkoDNuyypwG2ncZ_fDikHn1g6c3kMVppECAwIdVjq3-gGSRqafeVDKICtk2VhCxGLJ-QkzCa4s9Gl7X94?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)
Based on WICA, we already know that:
- When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
- Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road
Then, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...
Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
- Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
- Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
- Yellow watchtower is worth 3 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
- Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
- Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
- Black's watchtower is worth 5 points
Option B: We consider the whole double tile
- Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
- Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
- Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
- Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
- Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
- Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)
I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.
Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...
What do you think?
I don't like option A at all...
I would choose option B with the green rules. That seems to be consequent with the rules of dragon movement and occupied spaces in general. You always consider spaces around the tile: normally 9, 12 for German castles and 6 for castles. If one of the spaces contains a double tile that extends that surrounding space to the outside, that part of the double tile is considered too.
Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.
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"The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)"
"But for every other scoring"
"WICA: When scoring a monastery adjacent to one or more double-sized tiles, the monastery will consider the occupied square spaces (areas) adjacent to it. An double-sized tile adjacent to a monastery may then occupy 1 or 2 spaces. As a result a completed monastery will always score 9 points and an incomplete monastery will score 1 point for space occupied the monastery and 1 point per adjacent occupied space.
Note: The same considerations should be applied when removing and scoring an abbot, and the scoring of all other monastic buildings: abbeys, shrines, German monasteries / Japanese Buildings / Dutch & Belgian monasteries with monks, Darmstadt churches."
Until HiG will provide clarifications for all cases (probably never or after some years), the player should choose the variant that considers valid.
"But for every other scoring" should include also watchtowers.
The road segment from a Leipzig tile should be also considered once by inns, mage, German cathedrals, Wainwrights quarter.
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Here is my example based on Carcassonne93's question (finally)... so the feature with watchtowers are completed and ready for watchtower scoring.
1) Red completes a 2-tile road, triggering a watchtower scoring.
Red would score 2 points for the watchtower:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile (it features a city segment)
- 1 point for the adjacent Leipzig tile (it features a city segment)
2) Blue completes a 2-tile city occupied by Blue and a 2-tile road occupied by Yellow. Each feature triggers one watchtower scoring.
Blue would score 4 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Wainwrights quarter (it features two city segments)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one city segment)
Blue would also score 4 points for the completed 2-tile city.
Yellow would score 3 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one road segment)
Yellow would also score 2 points for the completed 2-tile road.
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Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.
I agree. Adjacency, figure/token movement, ranges and trajectories have to follow the grid of square spaces... But once you have determine the affected spaces, you have to map it down to whole tiles:
* One space may be occupied by one regular tile, 1 triangular tile, or two triangular tiles (considered as one tile)
* One space may be occupied by one half of a double-sized tile. If so, you have to consider the double-sized tile as one tile. You have to consider it once, no matter the tile overlaps two adjacent squares involved in the same mechanic.
Simple, huh?
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Here is my example based on Carcassonne93's question (finally)... so the feature with watchtowers are completed and ready for watchtower scoring.
1) Red completes a 2-tile road, triggering a watchtower scoring.
Red would score 2 points for the watchtower:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile (it features a city segment)
- 1 point for the adjacent Leipzig tile (it features a city segment)
2) Blue completes a 2-tile city occupied by Blue and a 2-tile road occupied by Yellow. Each feature triggers one watchtower scoring.
Blue would score 4 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Wainwrights quarter (it features two city segments)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one city segment)
Blue would also score 4 points for the completed 2-tile city.
Yellow would score 3 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the Leipzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one road segment)
Yellow would also score 2 points for the completed 2-tile road.
If it is used this rationale, the monasteries could still score 8 or 7 points when are completed.
"The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)"
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Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.
I agree. Adjacency, figure/token movement, ranges and trajectories have to follow the grid of square spaces... But once you have determine the affected spaces, you have to map it down to whole tiles:
* One space may be occupied by one regular tile, 1 triangular tile, or two triangular tiles (considered as one tile)
* One space may be occupied by one half of a double-sized tile. If so, you have to consider the double-sized tile as one tile. You have to consider it once, no matter the tile overlaps two adjacent squares involved in the same mechanic.
Simple, huh?
My first understanding was for option B. But when writing the examples, I realized option A could be as correct as option B, but was also a lot simplier.
I think we have to think about simplification, just like what HiG is doing with the recent clarifications :yellow-meeple:
Option A keeps consistency with basic scoring rules.
And that's definitely true:
Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement
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- Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
10 points.
Corrected this for options A and B ;)
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A monastery scores 1 point per occupied space no matter the tiles occupying them... Then you add the bonuses according to the actual tiles (vineyards, little buildings...).
A watchtower counts adjacent tiles with particular features (but we agreed to consider two halflings in a space as 1 tile). It would be similar to counting Little Buildings (or vineyards).
Would you count each Little Building twice when scoring these monasteries because they are placed on double-sized tiles?
(Note: We try to make square tiles to match the grid but double-sized tiles won't allow us to do that in some cases.)
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A monastery scores 1 point per occupied space no matter the tiles occupying them... Then you add the bonuses according to the actual tiles (vineyards, little buildings...).
A watchtower counts adjacent tiles with particular features (but we agreed to consider two halflings in a space as 1 tile). It would be similar to counting Little Buildings (or vineyards).
Would you count each Little Building twice when scoring these monasteries because they are placed on double-sized tiles?
(Note: We try to make square tiles to match the grid but double-sized tiles won't allow us to do that in some cases.)
Of course we wouldn't count them twice. With option A, they'd be considered the same as the German castle: Standing on both tiles but counted once (meeple on a castle isn't counted twice for watchtower scoring for surrounding meeples, that'd be nonsense).
With option B, that'd make another complicated thing to explain :yellow-meeple:
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My understanding is that Option A:
* The meeple on the German castle could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it
* The road segment on a Leipzig tile could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it
* A little building should be placed on one of the halves of a double-sized tile - you cannot consider it is on both halves.
The issue I have is this duality:
* We want to split the double-sized tile into two but this cannot happen. If so, the meeple would not be on either half so the dragon would not be able to eat it. You would end up with an Exp. 8 castle but this is not the case.
* Meeples placed clearly on one half would benefit or affect bonus scorings on that end but some other scorings would affect the whole tile...
I think this path also leads to conflicting situations... You would need a detailed list of dos and don'ts...
With option B, you have the following principles:
1) You address square spaces and then map to full tiles occupying/overlapping a given space when needed (even of they overflow the square space).
2) A double-sized tile is considered only once when mapped from different square spaces.
3) Two triangular tiles are considered one square tile for scoring purposes.
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- Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
10 points.
WikiCarpedia should describe all these cases on a dedicated page, and marking these examples with IconPadlock (see https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Icons and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Template:IconPadlock).
I think that this is the most neutral an correct variant for WICA. These interactions with other examples are a paradox. Options A, B, modified A, modified B or any other options, without an official clarification, are just semi-vague assumptions.
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My understanding is that Option A:
* The meeple on the German castle could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it
* The road segment on a Leipzig tile could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it
* A little building should be placed on one of the halves of a double-sized tile - you cannot consider it is on both halves.
The issue I have is this duality:
* We want to split the double-sized tile into two but this cannot happen. If so, the meeple would not be on either half so the dragon would not be able to eat it. You would end up with an Exp. 8 castle but this is not the case.
* Meeples placed clearly on one half would benefit or affect bonus scorings on that end but some other scorings would affect the whole tile...
I think this path also leads to conflicting situations... You would need a detailed list of dos and don'ts...
With option B, you have the following principles:
1) You address square spaces and then map to full tiles occupying/overlapping a given space when needed (even of they overflow the square space).
2) A double-sized tile is considered only once when mapped from different square spaces.
3) Two triangular tiles are considered one square tile for scoring purposes.
Yes, option B could work like that.
Splitting double tiles into two is not easier and only leads to more confusion....
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My understanding is that Option A:
* The meeple on the German castle could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it
* The road segment on a Leipzig tile could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it
* A little building should be placed on one of the halves of a double-sized tile - you cannot consider it is on both halves.
The issue I have is this duality:
* We want to split the double-sized tile into two but this cannot happen. If so, the meeple would not be on either half so the dragon would not be able to eat it. You would end up with an Exp. 8 castle but this is not the case.
* Meeples placed clearly on one half would benefit or affect bonus scorings on that end but some other scorings would affect the whole tile...
I think this path also leads to conflicting situations... You would need a detailed list of dos and don'ts...
With option B, you have the following principles:
1) You address square spaces and then map to full tiles occupying/overlapping a given space when needed (even of they overflow the square space).
2) A double-sized tile is considered only once when mapped from different square spaces.
3) Two triangular tiles are considered one square tile for scoring purposes.
Ok, and then... Green or black options?
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Second thought. About road scoring (core scoring only, I'm not talking about the 3 points bonus) :
A road starting and ending on the same german castle space. That space is counted once for the road scoring I guess? That'd be ok with both options A and B.
But a road starting on a space and ending on the second space of a single German Castle. Is the German castle tile:
- Counted once? That'd validate option B, tiles are not virtually separated for scoring (except for scoring per adjacent tiles)
- Counted twice? That'd validate option A, tiles are virtually separated for every scoring (except the castle itself)
I see no reason to apply a different mechanic for watchtower scoring and for roads scoring (if two road segments may be counted twice for road scoring, then they have to be counted twice for watchtower scorings too, or once and then once).
Maybe you're right with option B, and then a German Castle tile may be counted only once, even for a road network that includes both spaces of the German castle tile. Seems consistent too.
What do you think?
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German castles are only considered once when connected to the same road several times. It does not matter which halves of the tile are involved.
You could even connect the three roads on one German castle tile to the same road network with the help of a roundabout.
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How many points does the upper road scores?
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7 points
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7 points
I said I wasn't speaking of the bonus.
If it's 7 points, you ARE counting the double tile twice! Else it'd be 6 points ???
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Here's my point:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4m_Hpt_QxatNag-r5zoi4JkoCrDfsRwd66hUy-Xf6o46-_iAZQDkLKzLR0XPYTjH7sA40ZTc1DXPQxq8qkVw9kv436Ud6wR9DRPJFBw5ppe7Q96YkfpGVD-2kIoGjvgIuI9kK_tJdlT11dZeQBWBV4JR46l9qpB_vKS7PJxP8m6g_rv0TWPbKOGI3rTk3NiZWU?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)
If we treat those two roads the same way: The left one is 4+3 points, the right one is 5+3 points, the tile is counted once no matter the position of its two road segments (counted twice only for features scoring for adjacent tiles), then that validates option B.
If we treat those roads differently:The left one is 4+3 points, German castle tile counted once as the two road segments are on the same space; and the right one is 6+3 points, German castle tile counted twice as the road segments are on two different spaces, then we ARE separating the tile in two squares, and making a difference between features on the left square and features on the right square. That would validate option A, or A2 (see below).
Scoring the road with the first option and then using option A, and vice versa, wouldn't make any sense, as we'd apply two different mechanics (tile separated in two squares and counted twice + tile not separated and counted once) in the same step (3b Tally points and award points to the controlling player).
Here are options A and B again, but I realised maybe watchtowers may not apply the same mechanic than wagons and castles (that's A2), as watchtower are scoring mechanics, wagon and castle are action and triggering mechanics, ringmaster range could be apart too:
(https://am3pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mZwGC47F3lM712zaiPhVaYoDqWV6jnxMz0cqMG11cO90PqGyNPJC7ZLWHMXLUWZW_Q5KTJbefPRelZOrt-jrCSDHP3MEFW-7qRoWzyrSssptt29KIkoDNuyypwG2ncZ_fDikHn1g6c3kMVppECAwIdVjq3-gGSRqafeVDKICtk2VhCxGLJ-QkzCa4s9Gl7X94?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)
Based on WICA, we already know that:
- When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
- Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road
Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile (a little building'd be on both too), but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
- The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points
- Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
- Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
- Yellow watchtower is worth 6 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
- Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
- Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
- Black's watchtower is worth 5 points
Option A2: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile (a little building'd be on both too), but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only) for scoring and actions requiring a tile count, but ANY action affecting/applied on part of the tile is affecting/applied on the whole double tile:
- The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points
- Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
- Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile, or blue option: he IS considering it (the 12 surrounding tiles)
- Yellow watchtower is worth 6 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
- Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
- Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
- Black's watchtower is worth 5 points
Option B: We consider the whole double tile
- The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 5+3 (right) points
- Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
- Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
- Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
- Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
- Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
- Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
- Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
- Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
- Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)
I think option A2 may be the correct one, keeping the mechanic of flying machine for wagons and castles too, but virtually separating the tile for every scorings, seems consistent. Option B imply we consider spaces for monastic buildings, but tiles for watchtower and road scorings...
Note that with option A and A2, the meeple on the German castle could not be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it, that's still only one meeple, the road segment on a Leipzig tile could not be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it if we consider it to be a single road segment, and a little building could be considered as being applied to both halves (like the German Castle that's on both halves), but it cannot be counted twice.
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I think we should always consider the spaces around the feature.
• For features like the monastery group, watchtower, big top we count the 8 spaces around the feature tile.
• For the German castle tile, we count the ten spaces around the German castle tile.
• For castles, we count the six spaces of the castle’s fief.
• For meeples for which the surrounding space is important, like the wagon or ringmaster, we consider the number of spaces based on the tile it is placed on, hence 8, 10 or the castle’s fief.
• The Leipzig tiles are an exception per definition. Although visually it looks like the road is on two spaces, it’s not. The road on the double Leipzig tiles is only on one space per definition.
Possibility 1: If a double tile is only for one half part of the surrounding spaces, the complete tile counts for that specific space it is extending:
(https://i.imgur.com/eC0cQSN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vALI4nN.jpg)
So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces, but some of them are extended. These extended spaces are only considered once for scoring.
Possibility 2: If a double tile is completely part of the surrounding spaces, it is overlapping two spaces and both of them are considered for scoring:
(https://i.imgur.com/VJmgcen.jpg)
So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces. Both halves of the double tile are considered for scoring as they are both occupying a space.
That means for the examples from corinthiens 13:
1. The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points (6 spaces according to the recent rule clarifications)
2. Pink wagon may move anywhere on the German castle tile (according to Possibility 1)
3. Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring (according to possibility 1)
4. Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get points for the city on the German castle tile. (according to possibility 1)
5. Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 10 surrounding spaces as he is on the German castle. The violet wagon may only move to 8 spaces surrounding the space he's on, but including the complete German castle tile that’s part of the 8 surrounding spaces. (according to possibility 1)
6. Violet ringmaster is considering the 10 spaces around the German Castle tile, so including this circus tile (according to possibility 1)
7. Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering all meeples on the 8 surrounding spaces and including the complete German castle tile because the tile is spartly overlapping one of the 8 surrounding spaces (according to possibility 1)
8. Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the German castle tiles (according to possibility 2), and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles (per definition), and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
9. Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (according to possibility 1)
10. Black's watchtower is worth 5 points (according to possibility 2)
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I'm tired, sorry for the two replies I did just post and delete, I got confused :o
I think we should always consider the spaces around the feature.
• For features like the monastery group, watchtower, big top we count the 8 spaces around the feature tile.
• For the German castle tile, we count the ten spaces around the German castle tile.
• For castles, we count the six spaces of the castle’s fief.
• For meeples for which the surrounding space is important, like the wagon or ringmaster, we consider the number of spaces based on the tile it is placed on, hence 8, 10 or the castle’s fief.
• The Leipzig tiles are an exception per definition. Although visually it looks like the road is on two spaces, it’s not. The road on the double Leipzig tiles is only on one space per definition.
Possibility 1: If a double tile is only for one half part of the surrounding spaces, the complete tile counts for that specific space it is extending:
(https://i.imgur.com/eC0cQSN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vALI4nN.jpg)
So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces, but some of them are extended. These extended spaces are only considered once for scoring.
Possibility 2: If a double tile is completely part of the surrounding spaces, it is overlapping two spaces and both of them are considered for scoring:
(https://i.imgur.com/VJmgcen.jpg)
So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces. Both halves of the double tile are considered for scoring as they are both occupying a space.
That means for the examples from corinthiens 13:
1. The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points (6 spaces according to the recent rule clarifications)
2. Pink wagon may move anywhere on the German castle tile (according to Possibility 1)
3. Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring (according to possibility 1)
4. Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get points for the city on the German castle tile. (according to possibility 1)
5. Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 10 surrounding spaces as he is on the German castle. The violet wagon may only move to 8 spaces surrounding the space he's on, but including the complete German castle tile that’s part of the 8 surrounding spaces. (according to possibility 1)
6. Violet ringmaster is considering the 10 spaces around the German Castle tile, so including this circus tile (according to possibility 1)
7. Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering all meeples on the 8 surrounding spaces and including the complete German castle tile because the tile is spartly overlapping one of the 8 surrounding spaces (according to possibility 1)
8. Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the German castle tiles (according to possibility 2), and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles (per definition), and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
9. Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (according to possibility 1)
10. Black's watchtower is worth 5 points (according to possibility 2)
This is a possibility. My problem with this is that if the roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points, this means we are making a difference between the road segments based on their position on the German Castle tile (left example, only one of the two segments are counted, since they are on the same space, and right example, both of the two segments are counted since they are on two different spaces).
Then, why wouldn't we use se same mechanism for watchtower and consider only features that are directly on the 8 surrounding tiles? (+meeple on the german castle that is on both spaces)?
I think it'd be too strange to consider each feature on their specific space for road scoring, and then not for watchtower scoring ???
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Anyway, try to use tool called "Snipping Tool" in Windows 10.
You can make partial screenshot of screen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipping_Tool
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I'm tired, sorry for the two replies I did just post and delete, I got confused :o
I think we should always consider the spaces around the feature.
• For features like the monastery group, watchtower, big top we count the 8 spaces around the feature tile.
• For the German castle tile, we count the ten spaces around the German castle tile.
• For castles, we count the six spaces of the castle’s fief.
• For meeples for which the surrounding space is important, like the wagon or ringmaster, we consider the number of spaces based on the tile it is placed on, hence 8, 10 or the castle’s fief.
• The Leipzig tiles are an exception per definition. Although visually it looks like the road is on two spaces, it’s not. The road on the double Leipzig tiles is only on one space per definition.
Possibility 1: If a double tile is only for one half part of the surrounding spaces, the complete tile counts for that specific space it is extending:
(https://i.imgur.com/eC0cQSN.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vALI4nN.jpg)
So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces, but some of them are extended. These extended spaces are only considered once for scoring.
Possibility 2: If a double tile is completely part of the surrounding spaces, it is overlapping two spaces and both of them are considered for scoring:
(https://i.imgur.com/VJmgcen.jpg)
So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces. Both halves of the double tile are considered for scoring as they are both occupying a space.
That means for the examples from corinthiens 13:
1. The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points (6 spaces according to the recent rule clarifications)
2. Pink wagon may move anywhere on the German castle tile (according to Possibility 1)
3. Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring (according to possibility 1)
4. Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get points for the city on the German castle tile. (according to possibility 1)
5. Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 10 surrounding spaces as he is on the German castle. The violet wagon may only move to 8 spaces surrounding the space he's on, but including the complete German castle tile that’s part of the 8 surrounding spaces. (according to possibility 1)
6. Violet ringmaster is considering the 10 spaces around the German Castle tile, so including this circus tile (according to possibility 1)
7. Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering all meeples on the 8 surrounding spaces and including the complete German castle tile because the tile is spartly overlapping one of the 8 surrounding spaces (according to possibility 1)
8. Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the German castle tiles (according to possibility 2), and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles (per definition), and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
9. Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (according to possibility 1)
10. Black's watchtower is worth 5 points (according to possibility 2)
This is a possibility. My problem with this is that if the roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points, this means we are making a difference between the road segments based on their position on the German Castle tile (left example, only one of the two segments are counted, since they are on the same space, and right example, both of the two segments are counted since they are on two different spaces).
Then, why wouldn't we use se same mechanism for watchtower and consider only features that are directly on the 8 surrounding tiles? (+meeple on the german castle that is on both spaces)?
I think it'd be too strange to consider each feature on their specific space for road scoring, and then not for watchtower scoring ???
Scoring of roads and cities has nothing to do with surrounding areas. The rules for roads say that you score 1 point for every space the road is passing through. So in this way the rules are applied perfectly. If it would be two seperate tiles, the scoring would be exactly the same. Don't let the German Castle tile confuse you. You are scoring a road, so that means 1 point per space the road is passing through.
For areas the rules are different. We have learnt from the rules with regards to tower ranges of flyer's directions that an area extends in a 90° direction when a double tile is involved. So that's my proposal, just extend the 8, 10 or 4 surrounding tiles with the second half of the double tile that is not strictly part of the surrounding spaces itself (also 90° to the other direction.
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How many points does the upper road scores?
A similar question (only Base Game and Castles in Germany) should be asked to HiG.
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How many points does the upper road scores?
A similar question (only Base Game and Castles in Germany) should be asked to HiG.
I did it this morning, although I'm still waiting for some clarifications about bazaars I posted last week... It seems they won't reply until Friday the soonest...
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We got an answer from HiG last Friday, at last, about how to address these cases:
(https://i.imgur.com/wQjoc4b.png)
[Q6.1] Road #1 is worth 7 points (4 occupied spaces x 1 point per occupied space + 3 points for the German castle = 4 tiles x 1 point per tile + 3 points for the German castle).
But what about Road #2?
a) Road #2 is worth 9 points (6 occupied spaces x 1 point per occupied space + 3 points for the German castle). So each half of the German castle is counted individually, and the roads on the Leipzig tiles are an edge case for double-sized tiles.
b) Road #2 is worth 8 points (5 tiles x 1 point per tile + 3 points for the German castle). So double-sized tiles are considered as one single tile even if it contributes with two occupied spaces to the same road. This would be consistent with the case of the roads on the Leipzig tiles (two spaces occupied but scored as 1 actual tile).
[A6.1] Road #2 is worth 9 points. Leipzig is an edge case.
This means that features are scored by occupied square spaces (areas), even double-sized tiles (except those long roads on Leipzig tiles counted as 1 area). This would explain why two Halfling tiles sharing the same space are scored as one square tile.
The next step is clarifying how all this affects watchtowers. Since the source of the Jubilee River is a double-sized tile many interactions may happen involving this tile that will require a clarification such as watchtowers and ringmasters. ;)
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Great, thanks for those clarifications! :yellow-meeple:
And this may mean a double tile is indeed virtually separated, features on the left of the tile are on the left space, features on the right side of the tile are on the right space ;)
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Let's see if we can get this clarified. The road on the Leipzig tile is an exception as well as German castles... so far at least.
We would need to see what happens with watchtowers and castles... and the ringmaster and the big top
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So it's mean that red and black get both 9 points, right?
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Yes, we have to consider square spaces (areas) when scoring roads, so these roads are worth 9 points (6 square spaces x 1 point / space + 3 points for the German castle).
Notes:
* We are considering two spaces on the German castle due to the road segments connected to the road on different halves of the double-sized tile.
* The two halflings on the same square space (area) are considered as one occupied space (they would be equivalent to one square tile regarding scoring).
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Maybe we can call it squere area or for simple just square.
Anyway I liked previous appropach - per tiles (anyway used also in Leipzig currently named as edge case :D).
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For the time being, if we talk about tiles is simpler for everyone and more consistent with the wording in the rules, but:
* Two triangular tiles sharing the same square are considered one tile for scoring
* A double-sized tile counts as two tiles (one representing each half), except for the long road on a Leipzig tile (edge case).
There are some cases that need clarification regarding how to consider meeples and features on double-sized tiles when scoring watchtowers, German castles, ringmaster bonus, castles... just in case some other edge cases have to be considered:
* A watchtower scoring for roads involving double-sized tiles and halflings
* A watchtower scoring for meeples involving double-sized tiles (including German castles themselves), halflings and castles
* A ringmaster on a city, road or field on a double-sized tile (excluding the special case involving the long road on a Leipzig tile)
* A ringmaster on a German castle or a road on a Leipzig tile
* A castle overlapping a double-sized tile
* A ringmaster on a castle (just in case it is worth revisiting)
* A big top scoring involving meeples on double-sized tiles
As a final note, please notice the mixed behavior of double sized-tiles and halflings:
* Each tile counts individually when placing a figure or a token in 2. Placing a meeple.
* They are mapped to square spaces (areas) for scoring, trajectories (fliers), ranges (towers), dragon movement, fairy protection... even if an area includes two halflings or half a double-sized tile.
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For the time being, if we talk about tiles is simpler for everyone and more consistent with the wording in the rules, but:
* Two triangular tiles sharing the same square are considered one tile for scoring
* A double-sized tile counts as two tiles (one representing each half), except for the long road on a Leipzig tile (edge case).
There are some cases that need clarification regarding how to consider meeples and features on double-sized tiles when scoring watchtowers, German castles, ringmaster bonus, castles... just in case some other edge cases have to be considered:
* A watchtower scoring for roads involving double-sized tiles and halflings
* A watchtower scoring for meeples involving double-sized tiles (including German castles themselves), halflings and castles
* A ringmaster on a city, road or field on a double-sized tile (excluding the special case involving the long road on a Leipzig tile)
* A ringmaster on a German castle or a road on a Leipzig tile
* A castle overlapping a double-sized tile
* A ringmaster on a castle (just in case it is worth revisiting)
* A big top scoring involving meeples on double-sized tiles
As a final note, please notice the mixed behavior of double sized-tiles and halflings:
* Each tile counts individually when placing a figure or a token in 2. Placing a meeple.
* They are mapped to square spaces (areas) for scoring, trajectories (fliers), ranges (towers), dragon movement, fairy protection... even if an area includes two halflings or half a double-sized tile.
Well... For the sake of simplicity, I hope HiG is going to map everything into square spaces, for every step of the game, and consider the German Castle itself like a castle token, with 6 adjacent spaces :yellow-meeple: