The German rules literally mention "bonus" points in the rules as well.However I still consider it "core road scoring" since it is exactly the same as Inns, gameplay wise.Inns make a road worth 2 points per tile for a completed road. Same with Cathedrals.Multiple Inns don't stack (it stays 2 points per tile.)But when combined with other expansions, online sources tend to agree that Inns and Cathedrals do stack. And that both give +1 point per road tile. Which is exactly the same as Markets of Leipzig, +1 point per road tile.I thought the difference between "core" scoring and bonus points was the counting of tiles (meaning multiplication of points).So +1 per road tile for Inns. And +1 per road tile for Cathedrals (with the added rule of the tile counting double if the road loops back on the Cathedral.) And +1 per road tile, or +3 per shield for cities, for Markets of Leipzig.I don't see why Leipzig should be treated differently, the mechanism is the same, a bonus score per road tile.
Little Buildings and Castles give a set amount of bonus points, they score for themselves if a road or city is completed. A shed/house/tower is worth 1, 2 or 3 points, and a Castle scores +3 points. This is addition, independent from the number of road tiles.This page on "The Labyrinth" mentions 4 points/tile if you score a road with one or more Inns, one or more Cathedrals and have a meeple or Wainwrights Quarterhttp://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Labyrinths
The only order of operations problem I see in this quiz is the "timing" of the Witch.Andhttp://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Mage_and_Witchgives no info on the timing of the Witch.But the rules on the Witch do mention: (quote)"When scoring roads with inns and cities with cathedrals where the witch is present, first add the bonus points from the inn or cathedral, then halve the sum."If the bonus points from the Inns and Cathedrals are halved, then why not the bonus points from Leipzig?I'm fine with the Witch halving the points after the road tile scoring, but before the bonus points from Little Buildings and Castle (so (4*5)/2 +1 +1 +3 = 15) And I'm fine with the Witch halving points after the complete scoring for the road (so ((4*5)+1+1+3)/2 = 12.5 rounded up 13). But treating Markets from Leipzig differently just feels random to me.
So Markets of Leipzig bonus for roads cannot be considered an odd case. The Mage set a precedent here.
That's why I added a comment to indicate that that section works if the Mage and the Witch are not involved. I would need to rework that table as each row would have to include 3 cases: no modifiers, with Mage, with Witch.
3. Additional bonuses from other related features such as Little Buildings and so on.
Hi Meepledrone,here's my thoughts again, and thanks for working on these rules!
The official rules unfortunately are unclear about "order of operations" (timing) rules on scoring.
They only give "Mage and Witch after Inns and Cathedrals" and "Little Buildings after all others".
And for German Cathedrals they explain a road tile is worth 3 points with a German Cathedral and an Inn (or 0 points if unfinished).
For Castles in Germany and Markets of Leipzig I couldn't find anything official. So I guessed the castle to be "bonus points" based on that it scored a castle, which is more like a Little Building as in its not a road (tile). And Market of Leipzig to be "core road scoring" based on being road tiles, and having a mechanism exactly like Inns and German Cathedrals. (and the Labyrinth page mentioning a road tile being worth 4 points).
The question you try to answer is if scoring for the Market of Leipzig is "core scoring for the feature" or "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature". Which imho doesn't have a clear answer.
Wainwrights quarter +1 point for each road tile for the player with the majority on the road. Exactly like a finished Inn, or German Cathedral. Very much associated with the road (tiles.)
Coiners quarter +3 points for each coat of arms in a scored city in which you have at least one meeple (not neccesarily the majority).
If Red and Yellow have a Meeple in Coiners quarter, and Red scores the city, the fact that Yellow also gets point, does not dissociate the points Red receives from the points from scoring the city. If there's a Witch on the city, I'm not convinced that the Witch is applied before the addition of the Coiners quarter bonus points.
Bookbinders quarter A completed Monastery gives 9 points (most of the time) to the meeple on it, and with a meeple on Bookbinders quarter it gives +4 more points, also to other people not on the monastery but with a meeple on Bookbinders quarter. I don't see how the 4 points are Bookbinders dissociate. Furthermore a Witch can't be on a Monastery.
Tanners quarter Same as Bookbinders quarter, points associated with fields, and the Witch can't go on fields anyway.
So for all of these scenarios, the scoring can be considered "core feature scoring".
However, all of these can also be considered "bonus scoring dissociated from the scored feature".That is, if you consider the actual Meeple, on the Market in Leipzig, doing the scoring. Which also makes a lot of sense. The Meeple on the road scores the core points, then the witch comes in, then the score from the meeple in Leipzig is added, then Little buildings "after everything else".
It would be so much easier if the Scoring from the Market of Leipzig was a seperate scoring event, like the Watchtowers.
Or if the Mage/Witch had the rule that they're applied last.
If we apply Occam's razor (simplest rule solution is the best) applying the Witch last is the best option(disregarding the rules on Little Buidings)...((5 tiles * 4) +3 +1 +1)/2 = 12.5 -> 13
Witch after road scoring but before Castle and Little Buildings would be less clear:( (5 tiles * 4)/2 ) +3 +1 +1 = 15
And Witch after Inns and Cathedrals but Before Markets of Leipzig, Castle and Little Buildings would be the hardest to explain to casual players daring to play Mega Carcassonne...( (5 tiles * 3)/2 + (5 tiles * 1) +3 +1 +1 = 17.5 -> 18
In short; Witch modifier between Inn/Cathedral road tile +1 bonus and Markets of Leipzig road tile +1 bonus will be really hard to explain to casual players. Which I think is the main reason against it. Unless the Meeple doing the Leipzig scoring was a seperate scoring event, offically dissociated from the road scoring, like the Watchtower.
Quote from: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 10:16:51 AMSo Markets of Leipzig bonus for roads cannot be considered an odd case. The Mage set a precedent here.The Market of Leipzig scoring per tile being unprecedented or not is not an issue. And the Mage can't be on the same road as the Witch.Quote from: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 10:16:51 AMThat's why I added a comment to indicate that that section works if the Mage and the Witch are not involved. I would need to rework that table as each row would have to include 3 cases: no modifiers, with Mage, with Witch.Still, 4 points/tile is a bit misleading if one of the points is considered a bonus point and the other 3 are considered core feature points. The official rules only ever mention 0, 1, 2 or 3 points/tile.Quote from: Meepledrone on August 18, 2019, 10:16:51 AM3. Additional bonuses from other related features such as Little Buildings and so on.Little Buildings are added to the score "after all others". So after other bonus features.And the other bonus features (Castles in Germany, maybe Markets of Leipzig) are unclear about when they are added to the score, before or after the Witch for instance.
When I started this quiz I was sharing the same thoughts about Markets of Leipzig and roads. I was assuming all modifiers of the value per tile would be part of the core feature scoring. This was and odd case as Markets of Leipzig behaves differently for all other features:* Cities: it is not part of the core feature scoring as the bonus points go to those players with a meeple in the Coiners quarter and with at least a meeple in the city being scored. Majority in the city is not required, so this bonus is dissociated from the feature. Red is scoring the city but yellow can be getting the bonus points. * Monasteries (and all other monastic buildings by extension): the bonus points are dissociated from the feature. You may get the bonus without a meeple in a monastery.* Fields: This is a bonus similar to Little Buildings. So there is no discussion. So under this scenario, Markets of Leipzig would affect the core feature scoring for roads but it would behave as a normal bonus for all the other features.
So here's another one:from the rules:Special rule when scoring a road, unlike the rules of the base game, for a road starting and ending on the same Land tile showing a cathedral, you count and score each section of the road separately - i.e. that tile counts twice.When using Inns and Cathedrals, for each closed road with an Inn that leads to a cathedral, you get 3 instead of 2 points for each road tile.
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