Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: corinthiens13 on January 14, 2021, 08:05:22 AM
-
On the order of play, step 3c:
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.
I had in mind that:
A. This do only consider step 3, not the whole turn, according to the expansion's WICA page:
Each time you perform a scoring in phase 3. Scoring a feature, [2] if at least one of your opponents gains points and you gain none, [3] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
So it should be "If you did not score any points during step 3 (or only step 3a and 3b if circus is appart too) but one or more opponents did..."
B. Teacher and robber points are not considered to determine if you or another player earned points, if that's still the case, it should be mentioned too.
C. We may move the count only, or place a meeple only, or do both. According to WICA:
...you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
There is no restriction saying that you may move the count only if you did place a meeple in the city?
Am I correct? If so, I think the phrase should be:
"If you did not score any points during step 3 (or only step 3a and 3b if circus is appart too) but one or more opponents did (without considering robber or teacher points), you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne, then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice."
-
I've been checking the rules, and I have found the following:
1) The rules in German are almost the same in C1 and C2:
- In C1 they are written in third person (er = he), whereas they use second person in C2 (du = you)
- The rules refer to a player triggering one or multiple scorings (due to a tile placement) but getting no points for them
- The C2 rules mention explicitly that this scoring happens in 3. Scoring a feature
Translation of German C1 Exp.6 rules:
Each time a player triggers a scoring event in which at least 1 opponent receives points but he does not, that player may place 1 follower from his supply on a neighborhood of his choice at the end of his turn. If the player triggers multiple scores at the same time, he may not receive points in any of these scores to be able to use this option. However, he may place no more than one follower in Carcassonne per turn.
Translation of German C2 Exp.6 rules:
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Scoring a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.
If you trigger more than one score at the same time, you must not score points in any of these scores to be allowed to use this option. You may place no more than 1 meeple in Carcassonne per turn.
2) The rules in English in the CAR talk about a generic scoring (implying the full turn) and RGG in Big the Box 2 follows the German approach. However, ZMG translated the rules adding their own flavor:
C1 Exp. 6 rules - The rules are summarized stressing that the scoring is due to the completion of a feature:
At the end of a turn in which a player has placed a tile that completes one or more features and: a) causes one or more of his opponents to score points, and b) scores no points himself, he may place a follower from his supply into one of the 4 areas of the city of Carcassonne. It is not possible to place more than one follower into the city of Carcassonne in a single turn.
C2 Exp.6 rules - The rules omit the reference to 3. Scoring a feature and the explicit requirement that a player may not get points for any feature.
When you complete a feature during your turn, if at least one of your opponents gains points and you gain none, you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
Even if you complete more than one feature, you can place a maximum of one meeple in the city of Carcassonne per turn.
3) The wording of this action in the Order of Play comes from CAR that follows the C1 lead. An update may be necessary to include the C2 requirements. This would avoid an open interpretation that any scoring event would be considered, although the action is located in 3. Scoring a feature.
Additionally, if you check Footnote #3, you'll see that the rules only considered events triggered by a tile placement, so messages are discarded.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#cite_note-3 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#cite_note-3)
It is clear from the wording that only scoring caused by placement of a tile can trigger placement of a meeple in Carcassonne. Thus, scoring from non-landscape-tile related events (such as from dispatches (Messages, The (Dispatches) or paying a ransom for the tower (The Tower)) would not trigger meeple placement. Interestingly, though, the placement of a barn (Abbey and the Mayor) does trigger the ability to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, only if you do not receive points, but somebody else does.
So the conclusion is that you can only take into consideration points coming from scoring a feature in 3. Scoring a feature, including the associated bonuses to features and figures on them.
Any thoughts?
-
[...]
So the conclusion is that you can only take into consideration points coming from scoring a feature in 3. Scoring a feature, including the associated bonuses to features and figures on them.
Any thoughts?
This seems correct to me.
Do you also confirm that we may move the count (if the conditions above are fulfilled) even if we chose not to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne?
So, if I did understand correctly, a way to write it in WICA's order of play could be:
You can place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and / or move the count if you completed one or more features, you didn't get any points from any of them during 3. Scoring a feature (considering feature points, associated bonuses to features and figures on them, but not other indirect points like robber, teacher or castle points), but one or more opponents did. The circus is not considered.
What do you think?
Or as a bullet list:
You can place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and / or move the count if:
- you completed one or more features (the circus isn't considered)
- You didn't get any points from any of them during 3. Scoring a feature (considering feature points, associated bonuses to features and figures on them, but not other indirect points like robber, teacher or castle points)
- One or more opponents did
-
A) Sending a meeple to Carcassonne
There is more to it than completed features: In order to be able to send a meeple to Carcassone, you cannot receive points for any completed features or for any fields scored due to barns (no matter if it is a barn placement or a field connection).
Please check the clarifications about the interactions with Exp. 5, especially the bullet with the first FAQ boxes:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2)
B) Moving the Count
Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
The Order of Play also uses "then" in its wording for the same reason.
The C1 rules use a different wording but confirm the same restriction:
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.
-
A) Sending a meeple to Carcassonne
There is more to it than completed features: In order to be able to send a meeple to Carcassone, you cannot receive points for any completed features or for any fields scored due to barns (no matter if it is a barn placement or a field connection).
Please check the clarifications about the interactions with Exp. 5, especially the bullet with the first FAQ boxes:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#The_city_of_Carcassonne_and_the_count_of_Carcassonne_2)
Ok, so it could be:
"You can place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and / or move the count if one or more features have been scored, you didn't get any points from any of them during 3. Scoring a feature (considering feature points, associated bonuses to features and figures on them, but not other indirect points like robber, teacher or castle points), but one or more opponents did. The circus is not considered.
What do you think?
Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.
There's no dependency ? ???
-
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D: "whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count"..
The castle is not a bonus. Is a feature. The rules take into consideration the base game, where there points only from features. The barn is considered, so all other scorings from steps 3B (features, robber points, any other bonuses) and 3C (circus) should be considered. It is impossible to consider messages, because they are applied at the end of the round of scoring 3 (in this case); after meeple placement in City of Carcassonne or Count movement. But the ransom for a prisoner should not be considered; it can take place only once in any step during your turn.
-
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D: "whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count"..
The castle is not a bonus. Is a feature. The rules take into consideration the base game, where there points only from features. The barn is considered, so all other scorings from steps 3B (features, robber points, any other bonuses) and 3C (circus) should be considered. It is impossible to consider messages, because they are applied at the end of the round of scoring 3 (in this case); after meeple placement in City of Carcassonne or Count movement. But the ransom for a prisoner should not be considered; it can take place only once in any step during your turn.
For sure any feature should be considered.
Circus: As it isn't a claimable feature, I wasn't sure ???
Castle: They are a feature and are of course taken into consideration. I added the castle to the "not considered" list by thinking about a situation that, in fact, cannot happen as per the order of play. So there's no open question about castles.
But only feature points and bonuses should be considered, as we mean "points from a feature". This exclude robber and teacher, as well as bookbinder's quarter, that are not direct point from a feature.
If we considered those points, the bookbinder quarter would bring very odd situations:
Blue has a meeple on that quarter, red not:
- Blue wouldn't be able to move a meeple to the city after any monastery completition, no matter what, as he'd always get points from the bookbinder quarter
- For any monastery red completes during his turn, if he do not get points for it, he'd always have the possibility to move a meeple to the city, as blue would always get points for closed monasteries
This would be awesome >:D but makes no sense :o
-
You would have the same issue with the Coiners quarter bonus: Suppose you complete a city with coats of arms where don't have the majority. You would not score for the city but for the Coiners quarter bonus if you have a meeple in that quarter.
In any case, it would be similar to scoring no points for a completed feature you occupy without the majority but getting the 3 points for the fairy next to one of your meeples. Nice, huh?
The issue with The Markets of Leipzig is that the bonus is recurring... And you would have to ponder if the bonus outweighs being able to send meeples to Carcassonne from cities and/or monasteries during the rest of your game.
If those cases where you get bonus points for a feature you don't score were to be ruled out, then you should also discard the fairy, watchtowers, tollhouses, Darmstadt church bonus... And so far, we haven't heard any clarification about ruling out the fairy so far.
In any case, for the sake of simplicity, I would consider all the scorings happening in 3. Scoring a feature without considering Messages. They are all related directly or indirectly to the placement of a tile.
Let's see if we can get any clarification from HiG eventually about any exceptions.
-
without considering Messages
And without considering the ransom for a prisoner.
-
without considering Messages
And without considering the ransom for a prisoner.
Correct!
-
Ok, so we take every points from 3. scoring a feature into consideration (except prisoner ransom and messages, as they're not specifically part of the scoring a feature section). This means robbers and teacher are also considered, despite what the CAR stated.
Anyway, in the order of play:
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.
A mention that we're considering only points from 3. Scoring a feature is missing ;)
Personally, as long as HiG doesn't give a clarification, I'll still consider only the feature points (house rule or not), this seems more consistent to me, easy to understand, and doesn't break the gameplay when combined with the markets of Leipzig.
Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.
There's no dependency ? ???
And what do you think about this?
-
Ok, so we take every points from 3. scoring a feature into consideration (except prisoner ransom and messages, as they're not specifically part of the scoring a feature section). This means robbers and teacher are also considered, despite what the CAR stated.
Anyway, in the order of play:
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.
A mention that we're considering only points from 3. Scoring a feature is missing ;)
Personally, as long as HiG doesn't give a clarification, I'll still consider only the feature points (house rule or not), this seems more consistent to me, easy to understand, and doesn't break the gameplay when combined with the markets of Leipzig.
In the worst case scenario, a clarification about the fairy or the ringmaster may help narrow down the issue.
In any case, the restriction about 3. Scoring a feature should be added to the Order of Play.
Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.
There's no dependency ? ???
And what do you think about this?
In this case, the "if you did the placement" clause was added to the Order of Play after a discussion with Carcassonne93, who felt that use of "then" wasn't stressing enough the requirement whereby the Count can only be moved if you place a meeple in Carcassonne.
So, the same wording change could be applied to the C2 Exp. 6 rules to remove the ambiguous interpretation.
Any objections?
-
Ok, so we take every points from 3. scoring a feature into consideration (except prisoner ransom and messages, as they're not specifically part of the scoring a feature section). This means robbers and teacher are also considered, despite what the CAR stated.
Anyway, in the order of play:
If you did not score any points from placement of the tile this turn, but one or more opponents did, you may place a meeple in the City of Carcassonne. Then, if you did the placement, you may move the Count to a district of your choice.
A mention that we're considering only points from 3. Scoring a feature is missing ;)
Personally, as long as HiG doesn't give a clarification, I'll still consider only the feature points (house rule or not), this seems more consistent to me, easy to understand, and doesn't break the gameplay when combined with the markets of Leipzig.
In the worst case scenario, a clarification about the fairy or the ringmaster may help narrow down the issue.
In any case, the restriction about 3. Scoring a feature should be added to the Order of Play.
Perfect, agreed ;)
Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.
There's no dependency ? ???
And what do you think about this?
In this case, the "if you did the placement" clause was added to the Order of Play after a discussion with Carcassonne93, who felt that use of "then" wasn't stressing enough the requirement whereby the Count can only be moved if you place a meeple in Carcassonne.
So, the same wording change could be applied to the C2 Exp. 6 rules to remove the ambiguous interpretation.
Any objections?
Objection ! ;)
As stated before, I don't see how we arrive to unterstand the rules as a dependency. I think the count may be moved (unless playing with one of the two official variants) even if a player chosed not to place a meeple in the city:
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o , but that's not stipulated in the official rules.
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count. So you can do it even if you didn't place a meeple in the city?
-
Well, The sentence is at the end of a paragraph starting with the conditions to move a meeple to Carcassonne:
German wording:
Jedes Mal, wenn du bei 3. Eine Wertung auslösen selbst eine Wertung auslöst, bei der mindestens ein Mitspieler Punkte erhält, du selbst jedoch keine, darfst du am Zugende 1 Meeple aus deinem Vorrat auf ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen. Zusätzlich darfst du den Grafen in ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen.
English translation:
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.
So, the actions are to be linked, right?
Note: This is a deja vu of the Markets of Leipzig re: the conditions to get the Wainwright quarter bonus when sending a meeple to Leipzig (only from a road with more than one meeple) ;)
-
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o , but that's not stipulated in the official rules.
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count. So you can do it even if you didn't place a meeple in the city?
See https://www.brettspiele-report.de/images/carcassonne/der_graf_von_carcassonne/Spielanleitung_Carcassonne_Der%20Graf%20von%20Carcassonne.pdf, https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber_(1st_edition)/de#Wertung_2 ("Der Graf") and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber_(1st_edition)#Scoring_2 ("The Count").
-
Well, The sentence is at the end of a paragraph starting with the conditions to move a meeple to Carcassonne:
German wording:
Jedes Mal, wenn du bei 3. Eine Wertung auslösen selbst eine Wertung auslöst, bei der mindestens ein Mitspieler Punkte erhält, du selbst jedoch keine, darfst du am Zugende 1 Meeple aus deinem Vorrat auf ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen. Zusätzlich darfst du den Grafen in ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen.
English translation:
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.
So, the actions are to be linked, right?
Note: This is a deja vu of the Markets of Leipzig re: the conditions to get the Wainwright quarter bonus when sending a meeple to Leipzig (only from a road with more than one meeple) ;)
It has to be in the same paragraph as it is linked to the same condition that is "Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not".
But the two following actions (place a meeple and move the count) are two separate phrases, with "zuzatzlich" inbetween. I personnally do not understand this phrase as beeing dependent to each other, but only dependent to the scoring condition. ???
But the wording is probably not clear enough to be sure of anything, so... Ok, let's say it's dependent, we have to take an option :)
By the way, speaking some German I do not use Google translate. But when we give full attention to a specific word, we should translate the word only in Google to get its different meanings. Zusätzlich doesn't mean "in addition" (that's "und dazu"). Zusätzlich means moreover, furthermore, additionally, supplementary...
-
Well, The sentence is at the end of a paragraph starting with the conditions to move a meeple to Carcassonne:
German wording:
Jedes Mal, wenn du bei 3. Eine Wertung auslösen selbst eine Wertung auslöst, bei der mindestens ein Mitspieler Punkte erhält, du selbst jedoch keine, darfst du am Zugende 1 Meeple aus deinem Vorrat auf ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen. Zusätzlich darfst du den Grafen in ein Stadtviertel deiner Wahl stellen.
English translation:
Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not, you may place 1 meeple from your supply in a city quarter of your choice at the end of your turn. In addition, you may place the count in a city quarter of your choice.
So, the actions are to be linked, right?
Note: This is a deja vu of the Markets of Leipzig re: the conditions to get the Wainwright quarter bonus when sending a meeple to Leipzig (only from a road with more than one meeple) ;)
It has to be in the same paragraph as it is linked to the same condition that is "Each time you trigger a score in 3. Score a feature where at least one player scores points but you do not".
But the two following actions (place a meeple and move the count) are two separate phrases, with "zuzatzlich" inbetween. I personnally do not understand this phrase as beeing dependent to each other, but only dependent to the scoring condition. ???
But the wording is probably not clear enough to be sure of anything, so... Ok, let's say it's dependent, we have to take an option :)
By the way, speaking some German I do not use Google translate. But when we give full attention to a specific word, we should translate the word only in Google to get its different meanings. Zusätzlich doesn't mean "in addition" (that's "und dazu"). Zusätzlich means moreover, furthermore, additionally, supplementary...
Have you seen the first attachment posted by Carcassonne 93?
It states:
Der Graf
Immer wenn ein Spieler einen Gefolgsmann in die Stadt Carcassonne
stellt, darf er auch den Grafen in ein beliebiges der vier Stadtviertel stellen.
I think this closes the discussion. There is clearly a dependency.
-
It is c1, but you're probably right ;)
-
In this case, the "if you did the placement" clause was added to the Order of Play after a discussion with Carcassonne93, who felt that use of "then" wasn't stressing enough the requirement whereby the Count can only be moved if you place a meeple in Carcassonne.
So, the same wording change could be applied to the C2 Exp. 6 rules to remove the ambiguous interpretation.
Adding this change to Exp. 6 rules could be nice to avoid misinterpretation, maybe with a reference to C1's rules Carcassonne93 provided.
-
Ha ha ha! We've been going in circles...
I included the excerpt from the C1 rules for "Count" in post #3 of this thread, which Carcassonne93 mentioned in post #14 later. Maybe you missed it.
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4986.msg73762#msg73762 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4986.msg73762#msg73762)
[...]
B) Moving the Count
Regarding the Count, you can only move the Count if you move a meeple to Carcassonne. The rules use "then" to indicate this dependency.
[...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
The Order of Play also uses "then" in its wording for the same reason.
The C1 rules use a different wording but confirm the same restriction:
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.
-
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.
There's no dependency ? ???
Hi again, I have some news ;)
My interpretation was correct :D
I asked HiG about this (can we move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne), and the answer I got from Andreas Kramer is Yes ;)
Screenshots of the e-mails below. I can forward the e-mail if necessary.
This should be included as a note in exp 6 rules, and as a possibility in the order of play:
If the conditions are met, we may:
- Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne only
- Move the count only
- Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and then move the count
-
I do not understand this phrase as a dependency.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement" :o (and that's what's written in the order of play ("if you did the placement")).
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then.
So I do not see a dependency here. English rules may not be clear enough, but German rules are clear:
If you fulfill the conditions above, you may place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne (may = you do it or not). Furthermore / moreover, you may move the count.
There's no dependency ? ???
Hi again, I have some news ;)
My interpretation was correct :D
I asked HiG about this (can we move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne), and the answer I got from Andreas Kramer is Yes ;)
Screenshots of the e-mails below. I can forward the e-mail if necessary.
This should be included as a note in exp 6 rules, and as a possibility in the order of play:
If the conditions are met, we may:
- Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne only
- Move the count only
- Place a meeple in the city of Carcassonne and then move the count
I think Andreas Kramer should firstly reread the rules again...
This can't be right... :-[
That would change the game play with the Count completely. The challenge and fun while playing with the Count is that you have to "sacrifice" a meeple (and a few points) to be able to deblock the meeple(s) you want to use. With this clarification, you would only have to sacrifice a few points...
-
I think Andreas Kramer should firstly reread the rules again...
This can't be right... :-[
That would change the game play with the Count completely. The challenge and fun while playing with the Count is that you have to "sacrifice" a meeple (and a few points) to be able to deblock the meeple(s) you want to use. With this clarification, you would only have to sacrifice a few points...
As I said earlier, I think the rules goes totally in the way Andreas explained:
If [...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement, you may...", or "after placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, you may...".
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then. Those words DO NOT imply a dependency, they're just a more constructed way of saying "and also" (you may do this, AND you may also do that). English rules may not be clear enough by using "then", but German rules are clear (French too, maybe the reason why I didn't even think there could be a dependency before).
-
I agree that maybe Andres does not know this expansion in detail.
I just remembered the official variants for the movement of the Count that HiG released for C1:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D)
Please check the wording of the variants. I underlined the interesting parts (Note: by freely moving the Count, they are referring to the movement of the Count to any district of choice of the active player):
Even the aristocracy are subject to certain rules, and cannot simply do whatever they may want. The following variants take this into account and constrain the freedom of the Count. Using these variants will provide even more tactical possibilities. In both variants, the Count may no longer be freely moved, but rather:
* whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count is moved clockwise to the next city district, or
* the Count is moved to whichever city district the new meeple is deployed to.
-
I agree that maybe Andres does not know this expansion in detail.
I just remembered the official variants for the movement of the Count that HiG released for C1:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D)
Please check the wording of the variants. I underlined the interesting parts (Note: by freely moving the Count, they are referring to the movement of the Count to any district of choice of the active player):
Even the aristocracy are subject to certain rules, and cannot simply do whatever they may want. The following variants take this into account and constrain the freedom of the Count. Using these variants will provide even more tactical possibilities. In both variants, the Count may no longer be freely moved, but rather:
* whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count is moved clockwise to the next city district, or
* the Count is moved to whichever city district the new meeple is deployed to.
That's true, but those are CI rules, and they were totally different.
CI rule makes it clear that we may move the count only if we did place a meeple in the city:
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.
CII rules have changed:
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
If they changed the rules, that's for a reason ;)
If HiG wanted us to play with CI rule, they wouldn't have changed the rules for CII. And once again, the wording of CII German rules makes it clear that we may move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple:
If [...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement, you may...", or "after placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, you may...".
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then. Those words DO NOT imply a dependency, they're just a more constructed way of saying "and also" (you may do this, AND you may also do that). English rules may not be clear enough by using "then", but German rules are clear (French too, maybe the reason why I didn't even think there could be a dependency before).
-
Note that every example that were mentioned in this thread to argue that we can not move the count only were from CI, never from CII ;)
-
I agree that maybe Andres does not know this expansion in detail.
I just remembered the official variants for the movement of the Count that HiG released for C1:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#Official_variants_.5B11.5D)
Please check the wording of the variants. I underlined the interesting parts (Note: by freely moving the Count, they are referring to the movement of the Count to any district of choice of the active player):
Even the aristocracy are subject to certain rules, and cannot simply do whatever they may want. The following variants take this into account and constrain the freedom of the Count. Using these variants will provide even more tactical possibilities. In both variants, the Count may no longer be freely moved, but rather:
* whenever a new meeple is deployed to the city of Carcassonne, the Count is moved clockwise to the next city district, or
* the Count is moved to whichever city district the new meeple is deployed to.
That's true, but those are CI rules, and they were totally different.
CI rule makes it clear that we may move the count only if we did place a meeple in the city:
When a player deploys a follower to Carcassonne, he or she may also move the Count to one of the City quarters.
CII rules have changed:
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
If they changed the rules, that's for a reason ;)
If HiG wanted us to play with CI rule, they wouldn't have changed the rules for CII. And once again, the wording of CII German rules makes it clear that we may move the count even if we choose not to place a meeple:
If [...] you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
If there was a dependency, it would be stipulated by "if you did the placement, you may...", or "after placing a meeple in the city of Carcassonne, you may...".
The French and German rules are even more clear, as they use furthermore, or moreover ("de plus" in French rules, "Zusätzlich" in German rules) instead of then. Those words DO NOT imply a dependency, they're just a more constructed way of saying "and also" (you may do this, AND you may also do that). English rules may not be clear enough by using "then", but German rules are clear (French too, maybe the reason why I didn't even think there could be a dependency before).
I am still not convinced that they wanted to change the rules. There is a difference between rephrasing a text and changing a rule.
"Zusätzlich" means "additionally". Adding means +1, one can only add something to another action that was already done.
Nevertheless, I will stick to the C I rules for sure. I cannot think of any improvement HiG came up with when they were adapting rules. They were wrong when they changed the rules for the wagon, they messed up when they changed the rules for monasteries (spaces vs tiles) and they are wrong once again if they changed the rules for the movement of the Count (if this would really be a change of the rules...).
-
Nobody asked this question again?
-
I asked HiG about this... One more reply I'm wating for...
-
I think that at least a footnote on WICA regarding this issue should pe placed at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber.
-
Maybe I read it wrong but:
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
There is implication. A then B when A is negative then you are not able to do B.
So if you not place meeple then you can not move count. Because you may move count as 2nd step when you place meeple in 1st step.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
-
Maybe I read it wrong but:
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
There is implication. A then B when A is negative then you are not able to do B.
So if you not place meeple then you can not move count. Because you may move count as 2nd step when you place meeple in 1st step.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
In any case, a footnote is still required. It is clear that the rules are not 100 % clear.
-
Maybe I read it wrong but:
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
There is implication. A then B when A is negative then you are not able to do B.
So if you not place meeple then you can not move count. Because you may move count as 2nd step when you place meeple in 1st step.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
In any case, a footnote is still required. It is clear that the rules are not 100 % clear.
Εν οίδα ότι ουδέν οίδα :D
-
Maybe I read it wrong but:
you may place a meeple in one of the four city districts (even if the Count is in that district). Then, you may move the Count to a district of your choice within the city of Carcassonne.
There is implication. A then B when A is negative then you are not able to do B.
So if you not place meeple then you can not move count. Because you may move count as 2nd step when you place meeple in 1st step.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
In any case, a footnote is still required. It is clear that the rules are not 100 % clear.
Εν οίδα ότι ουδέν οίδα :D
The Carcassonne rules are a paradox, too. :)
-
Added an inline clarification and a footnote based on the rules for the 1st edition, were the dependency between the actions was totally clear.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#cite_note-4 (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Count,_King_and_Robber#cite_note-4)
-
I do not understand why does WICA should not mention the e-mail from Andreas Kramer...
-
This was clarified by Kettlefish, not Andreas.
-
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4986.msg74190#msg74190
Here I see Andreas Kramer. Not Kettlefish.
-
Andreas made a bit of a mess by ignoring the dependency expressed in the C1 rules. In German, the dependency is still maintained in C2, but it seems that the English wording became fuzzier and "Then..." is weaker than "Additionally,..." or "Then, if you did the placement,...", that is what the original rules meant.
I discussed this issue again with Kettelfish who confirmed the rules in C2 are the same as in C1 in this case.
-
Andreas made a bit of a mess by ignoring the dependency expressed in the C1 rules. In German, the dependency is still maintained in C2, but it seems that the English wording became fuzzier and "Then..." is weaker than "Additionally,..." or "Then, if you did the placement,...", that is what the original rules meant.
I discussed this issue again with Kettelfish who confirmed the rules in C2 are the same as in C1 in this case.
Any public link to this discussion?
-
The discussion is on Discord (see messages related to CKR03):
https://discord.com/channels/746804004268408952/854439841663156276/947570958212956211 (https://discord.com/channels/746804004268408952/854439841663156276/947570958212956211)