Author Topic: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns  (Read 1989 times)

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6311
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« on: January 22, 2021, 05:28:57 PM »
Hi all!

I had a quick exchange with Jputt927 and he answered a couple of questions about The Fortune Teller and double turns.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Here you are the questions:

[Q1] What happens of you decide to place a Halfling or a German castle and then you get a double turn. Do you draw 3 tiles if you have two fortune tellers for the second part of your double turn?

[A1] If triggering a double turn as result of a halfling tile, German castle, etc then you would always draw the maximum tiles that your fortune tellers allow and choose from that.



[Q2] If you draw three tiles and the placement of your first tile grants you a double turn, can you discard the rest and place an abbey, for example? If possible, when could you decide this?

[A2] You would not be allowed to place an abbey or any other special tile. That decision has to be made before triggering your fortune teller and drawing extra tiles.

My understanding from this is that you may not discard voluntarily any tiles (except those that require a bridge to be placed) as usual. But if you have no valid tiles left in your hand, you would be able to either draw up to 3 new tiles again or place a tile from your supply (a German castle, a halfling or an abbey) you will have to draw one tile at a time until you can place it, as per a reply below. So you will not be able to place a tile from your supply (a German castle, a halfling or an abbey).

Hope he shows up again for a couple of more questions I sent him about being allowed to pick a tile with no valid placement to use any actions associated to them (Peasant Revolts, Wheel of Fortune) knowing you will discard it right away.

Cheers!



EDIT: Check some additional answers in the following post:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5009.msg74142#msg74142

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5009.0
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 06:21:40 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
  • Merit: 48
    • View Profile
    • Divider cards for C1 & C2 / C3 both in French & English:
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2021, 11:20:42 AM »
Thanks for those answers Meepledrone.

Another question (but maybe this has already been clarified): What happens at the end of the game, if I have two fortune tellers but there's only two tiles left in the supply. The game ends as I can't draw the tiles I should? Or I draw only two tiles and play a normal turn, and then, at the end of my turn, I place the second (and last) tile in the supply for the next player?

I'd opt for the second option, to be consistent with hills rules if the last tile drawn is a hill.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6311
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2021, 12:02:45 PM »
No problem...

I wish I could get all the answers right away. I happened to see JPutt927 online and I rushed to send him a PM with the first two questions that came to my mind.

Regarding your interesting question, I see the following options:

1. The game ends if you cannot draw enough extra tiles, as you indicate. I would discard this one, because in the worst case you may draw one or two tiles or even none, and place a tile from your supply (a German castle, a halfling or an abbey), so you have several options.

2. You draw as many tiles as you can. This seems the right choice, even if ,in our heads, it seems worse drawing less tiles than allowed by your fortune tellers.

3. You draw only one tile. This is too restrictive if you can grant more tiles. It may seem more fair to all players when there are less than three turns to play. It would mimic the rules of the bazaar if there are not enough tiles left to proceed with an auction. But in this case, this is not true... You can proceed with less tiles that those granted by your fortune tellers.

Option #2 seems also more Machiavellian to me because you are not only choosing a tile, you can also influence what tiles are left for the final one or two rounds. This is the only thought that would prevent me from choosing this option, but as you see this also happens if there are 3 tiles left and you draw them all: If you trigger a double turn, you would place two of them and you would also decide the final tile of the game.

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
  • Merit: 48
    • View Profile
    • Divider cards for C1 & C2 / C3 both in French & English:
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2021, 12:34:06 PM »
Option #2 seems also more Machiavellian to me because you are not only choosing a tile, you can also influence what tiles are left for the final one or two rounds. This is the only thought that would prevent me from choosing this option, but as you see this also happens if there are 3 tiles left and you draw them all: If you trigger a double turn, you would place two of them and you would also decide the final tile of the game.

This is indeed machiavelic, but it seems to be the most logical option, and also the simplest to understand for players.  :yellow-meeple:

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6311
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2021, 05:06:33 PM »
Indeed! No special rules, just a limitation by the number of remaining tiles.

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6311
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2021, 01:09:58 AM »
Here you are another batch of answers:

[Q3] You have two fortune tellers. If you drew 3 tiles and one of them cannot be placed, can you pick it (imagine it is a Wheel of Fortune tile that benefits you), then discard it and finally pick another tile? Or are you always forced to pick a tile you can place?

[A3] If you draw multiple tiles and any of them cannot be placed, you must then choose a tile that can be placed.

This means that, when you decide to draw the extra tiles granted by your fortune tellers, you cannot pick tiles you cannot place and invoke any actions previous to the placement of the tile (Wheel of Fortune or Peasant Revolts)



[Q4] You have two fortune tellers. If you end up discarding all of your tiles because they cannot be placed (or you don't want to use a bridge to place any of them), could you decide between drawing three new tiles or placing your abbey? This situation could happen during double turn:
- You draw three tiles, two of them are CCCC tiles you cannot place.
- You place the third tile, which grants you a double turn
- For the second part of your double turn, you could decide to draw 3 new tiles or placing your abbey, right?


[A4] If none of the drawn tiles can legally be placed, then the player should only redraw a single tile until they draw one that can be placed.

This means that, when you decide to draw the extra tiles granted by your fortune tellers, you cannot change your mind and use a tile in your supply (abbey, Halfling, German castle) even if you cannot place any of the tiles you drew. You have to continue to draw one tile at a time until it can be placed.

If this happens at the end of the game and all the remaining tiles cannot be placed, you will have to remove them all from the game. Since no tiles can be drawn and placed, the game would end (we are not considering here a possible additional round to place any abbeys left).




[Q5] When there are fewer tiles left than the amount your fortune teller(s) allow you to draw, should you draw (i) only one (no fortune teller effect) or (ii) as many tiles as possible? I'm assuming the answer will be option (ii) but just wanted to double check with you.

[A5] If there are not enough tiles left to, draw as many as your fortune teller allows, the player should draw as many as they are able (as many as there are left).

Offline Vital Pluymers

  • Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 192
  • Merit: 3
  • The King
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2021, 01:14:36 AM »
Well, I must say I like these clarifications.
I would have come to the same conclusion!  :D

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
  • Merit: 48
    • View Profile
    • Divider cards for C1 & C2 / C3 both in French & English:
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2021, 01:25:22 AM »
Thanks for those clarifications  ;)

One question, if we draw 3 tiles and none of them can be placed, we discard them WITHOUT performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action? We then draw a single new tile and, if it can not be placed, we also discard it without performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action ?

This means that having a fortune teller, no matter the situation, makes it impossible to perform WoF or Peasant revolt actions from tiles that can not be placed?  ???

It seems logical when at least one of the tiles can be placed, we have to chose this one, that's fine.
I like those clarifications, only the one about when none of the tiles doesn't satisfy me. It seemed more logical to me that in this situation, you still pick a tile, perform any WoF or Peasant revolt action, discard it and draw a new one. Discarding the tiles before performing step 1a and 1b seems odd...

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Grand Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6311
  • Merit: 456
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2021, 02:01:56 AM »
Thanks for those clarifications  ;)

My pleasure!

One question, if we draw 3 tiles and none of them can be placed, we discard them WITHOUT performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action? We then draw a single new tile and, if it can not be placed, we also discard it without performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action ?

JPutt927's answer surprised me, since I was considering this option would be valid, since it is allowed when you draw just one tile. However, if you only can choose tiles you can place. It seems this cannot be an option anymore. You have to pick a tile you can place or draw a new one tile at a time until you can place it.

This means that having a fortune teller, no matter the situation, makes it impossible to perform WoF or Peasant revolt actions from tiles that can not be placed?  ???

It seems so. In my last reply, I insisted on the two aspects that made me raise an eyebrow:
- As per the clarifications you cannot invoke any actions triggers by tiles you cannot place (Wheel Of Fortune events and peasant revolts)
- If none of your tiles cannot be placed, you don't have an option to place a tile in your supply (abbey tile, German castle, halfling)

I'll keep you posted if he adds any comments about these issues.

It seems logical when at least one of the tiles can be placed, we have to chose this one, that's fine.
I like those clarifications, only the one about when none of the tiles doesn't satisfy me. It seemed more logical to me that in this situation, you still pick a tile, perform any WoF or Peasant revolt action, discard it and draw a new one. Discarding the tiles before performing step 1a and 1b seems odd...

Technically you are not discarding any tiles yet. You should be putting them aside until you draw one you can place. Discarding and shuffling them and drawing them again would be a waste of time.

The issue would be what happens if these new draws take place and the tile you finally manage to place (after, let's say 5 draws) grants you a double turn. At this point I imagine two options:
1) You just discard those 4 tiles in your hand and draw 3 new tiles for the second part of your double turn as if you had placed a German castle or a halfling in the first part of your turn. You shouldn't be deciding which tiles to keep or discard from the total batch you drew.
2) Prior to each extra draw you put aside one of your tiles in your hand. These tiles put aside will be discarded when you finally draw and place a valid tile.

I think option 2) is simpler and very straight forward.

Any thoughts?

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
  • Merit: 48
    • View Profile
    • Divider cards for C1 & C2 / C3 both in French & English:
Re: Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2021, 01:47:16 PM »
Thanks for those clarifications  ;)

My pleasure!

One question, if we draw 3 tiles and none of them can be placed, we discard them WITHOUT performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action? We then draw a single new tile and, if it can not be placed, we also discard it without performing any WoF or Peasant revolt action ?

JPutt927's answer surprised me, since I was considering this option would be valid, since it is allowed when you draw just one tile. However, if you only can choose tiles you can place. It seems this cannot be an option anymore. You have to pick a tile you can place or draw a new one tile at a time until you can place it.

This means that having a fortune teller, no matter the situation, makes it impossible to perform WoF or Peasant revolt actions from tiles that can not be placed?  ???

It seems so. In my last reply, I insisted on the two aspects that made me raise an eyebrow:
- As per the clarifications you cannot invoke any actions triggers by tiles you cannot place (Wheel Of Fortune events and peasant revolts)
- If none of your tiles cannot be placed, you don't have an option to place a tile in your supply (abbey tile, German castle, halfling)

I'll keep you posted if he adds any comments about these issues.

Revolt !  :PI'm gonna keep the rule that if at least one of the tile is possible to place, you have to chose it (that clarification is totally ok for me), but if none of the tiles can be placed, you still have to chose one, perform any WoF or Peasant revolt action, discard it and draw a new one. Seems more consistent with the rules, easy to understand and apply...  :yellow-meeple:


It seems logical when at least one of the tiles can be placed, we have to chose this one, that's fine.
I like those clarifications, only the one about when none of the tiles doesn't satisfy me. It seemed more logical to me that in this situation, you still pick a tile, perform any WoF or Peasant revolt action, discard it and draw a new one. Discarding the tiles before performing step 1a and 1b seems odd...

Technically you are not discarding any tiles yet. You should be putting them aside until you draw one you can place. Discarding and shuffling them and drawing them again would be a waste of time.

The issue would be what happens if these new draws take place and the tile you finally manage to place (after, let's say 5 draws) grants you a double turn. At this point I imagine two options:
1) You just discard those 4 tiles in your hand and draw 3 new tiles for the second part of your double turn as if you had placed a German castle or a halfling in the first part of your turn. You shouldn't be deciding which tiles to keep or discard from the total batch you drew.
2) Prior to each extra draw you put aside one of your tiles in your hand. These tiles put aside will be discarded when you finally draw and place a valid tile.

I think option 2) is simpler and very straight forward.

Any thoughts?


If I agreed with the rule that we do not play an unplacable tile even if none of them may be placed (yes, I'm still in revolt mood :P ), then I'd agree with option 2  ;)


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
Fortune Teller and JPutt927

Started by Safari

9 Replies
6734 Views
Last post May 03, 2016, 02:25:46 PM
by karkids
xx
Question about the rules: THE FORTUNE TELLER by JPutt927

Started by kettlefish

3 Replies
9854 Views
Last post April 19, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
by Carcking
xx
Princess and the Dragon - Rule Clarifications

Started by reddalek

4 Replies
4952 Views
Last post November 16, 2016, 05:10:35 PM
by reddalek
xx
Ghosts, Abbots and Spell Circles - Clarifications by Cundco - 13 03 2024

Started by Meepledrone

2 Replies
374 Views
Last post March 13, 2024, 04:05:15 PM
by Meepledrone
xx
Clarifications of rules (Mists over Carcassonne) - with HiG - 12 11 2022

Started by Meepledrone

0 Replies
941 Views
Last post November 15, 2022, 10:31:20 AM
by Meepledrone