Author Topic: Help—I need help with acronyms  (Read 863 times)

Offline PapaGeek

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Help—I need help with acronyms
« on: January 12, 2022, 01:50:51 PM »
The game of Carcassonne was designed by Klaus-Jürgen Wrede and published in 2000 by Hans im Glück in German and by Rio Grande Games (until 2012) and Z-Man Games (currently) in English.

Our group of 4 neighborhood friends started hosting weekly game nights due to COVID and we were introduced to Carcassonne in June of 2021, so, we are definitely relative newbies.  My earliest recommendations to the on line groups was that all of the boxes sold should include a label: Warning: this game is extremely addictive!

Within the last 7 months, our weekly games have grown from the content of Big Box 6 to also include Expansion 5: Abbey and the Mayor plus Expansion 8: Bridges, Castles, and Bazaars plus the Halflings Minor Expansion. And our newest inclusions are River II and Expansion 3: Princess and Dragon which we had to order from Norway in November and it did not arrive until January 2022!

Our first attempt to play the expansion was based on the printed rules that came in 3 Nordic languages and the latest PDF from Z-man Games, but we also went on line to the forums where some of the posts seemed to contradict the printed rules!

As we went on line to ask questions, a lot of the responses from long standing members used abbreviations like: WICA, C1, C2, CAR, HiG, C1 rules, C2 rules, BB3, RGG and ZMG! And I’m sure there are other abbreviations that are normally used that we didn’t see!

So, here is my request as a newbie!  The Carcassonne Central forum home page includes a link for Help.  Is it possible for the advanced members to include two more items in the bulleted list of subpages?

The first would be a list of abbreviations.  I assume that C1 and C2 represent two separate phases that the game has gone through over time, when did the change happen and what caused it; do we see another change coming?  Plus what all of the other abbreviations mean.

The second would be a list of links to PDFs of the printed rules for each expansion in each phase.


No need to comment on this, but here is an example of how this type of information might be helpful to other newbies.  After making our posts, reading the current rules, and doing personal Google research into Carcassonne history, this is a link to the recommendations that our personal game night group will consider before playing Princess and Dragon this weekend!


http://www.papageek.com/car/Dragon.htm#PlacingDragonTile
 


Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5663.0
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:11:30 AM by Decar »
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Help
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2022, 04:26:28 PM »
Some of this acronyms come from afar, some others are a subproduct of the discussions on the forum where we used them as a shorthand. As you will see C1 and C2 refer to the existing editions... I grouped the terms by topics. I think there will be no issue in adding a glossary as you suggest. In any case, I hope this post helps!

Regarding a PDF rulebook repository, you may find one on the German forum with almost any rules available in various languages:
https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewforum.php?f=14

Here you are the definitions:

>> Edition names and artwork versions:

* C1 stands for Carcassonne I, the old edition of Carcassonne. The artwork is by Doris Matthäus.

* C2 stands for Carcassonne II, the new edition of Carcassonne. The artwork is by Anne Pätzke.
   In this edition we may some districtions regarding the art work:
   - C2.0, that represents the initial artwork featuring cities with dark ebackground (2014-2016)
   - C2.1, that represents an updated version of the artwork common to us all featuring cities with lighter backgrounds (2016-2020)
   - C2.2, that represents a new update with buildings overflowing the city edges and some more detail (2020-). We are still discussing if C2.2 should be considered C3
   You may find some additional info about these visual changes here:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Visual_Changes_in_the_2nd_Edition

* C3 stands for Carcassonne III, the new new editon if Hans-im-Glück confirms it is a completely new edition. The artwork is by Marcel Gröber based on the previous work by Anne Pätzke.
  - Pros:
    - Tile references in Big Box v3.0 or 2021 (not annouced officially but on sale in some countries) lists all tiles with a code starting with V3.
    - Carcassonne v3.0 and Big Box v3.0 include a nuew version of the river source (with a road) and th river lake (with a monastery), different from those tiles in C1 and C2.
    - Rules add some tiny wording changes and the manuals follow a new design.
  - Cons:
    - Hans-im-Glück and other publishers are not preparing a proper launch campaign. They are releasing the new versions as revamped reprints in a updated style.
    - No real backwards compatibility issues exist with previous C2 releases.

* WD or Winter Edition Download Version, which was only available for download until the official boxed edition was relesead in 2012. The artwork is by Doris Matthäus and looks like a snowy version of C1. Some people didn't like how snowed fields looked like. See here:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Variants#Winter_Digital_Download

* WE stands for the regular Winter Edition released in 2012 ans later re-released in 2020 including river tiles. The artwork is by Anne Pätzke and looks closer to C2. The tile distribution includes 12 additional without additional rules featuring animals.



>> Rules and clarification guides:

* CAR: is short for the Carcassonne Complete Annotated Rules document that served as a backbone for this forum. The last update was version v7.4 from 22/05/2015 which missed the last C1 expansions (Cathedrals in Germany and The Labyrinth) and the clarifications from 10/2015 and 4/2016 covering long debated issues like interactions with Halflings and double-sized tiles when combined with other expansions. Regarding C2 it only covers The Abbot and some clarifications affecting it.
The CAR v7.4 is available here:
   http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=292

* WICA: short for WikiCarpedia. It is an online version of the CAR that used it as source material and added all the available clarifications since then. The project started in summer 2018. It covers C1, C2/C3, WD/WE and other Carcassonne spin-offs (not all of them fully developed). It keeps C1 and C2/C3 rules separated due to the differences beween editions.
WICA is available here:
   https://wikicarpedia.com



>> Rules sets:

* C1 Rules (2000-2016) refers to the rules of the old edition plus all the official clarifications relased for it.

* C2 Rules (2014-) refers to the rules of the new edition plus all the official clarifications released from 2020-2021. Some of these clarifications override previous official ones for C1. 

Notable differences:
- C1 rules:
  - Exp. 5 - Abbey & Mayor:
    - The wagon moves to a valid feature connected by roads at any distance or by common edges (e.g. city to adjacent abbey).
    - At the end of the game, before final scoring, players may enjoy an extra round to place the remaining abbey tiles.
  - Exp. 6 - Count, King & Robber:
    - Before final scoring, players may redeploy all their meeples in Carcassonne to roads, cities, monasteries and fields.
  - Mini #2 - The Messages:
    - There may be up to 6 rounds of scoring during the turn sequence where players may receive messages.
  - Halflings:
     - Triangular tiles are counted individually during scoring.
  - Double-sized tiles (Castles in Germany):
     - Double-sized tiles are counted individually during scoring.
  - The Abbot (aligned with the C1 rounds of scoring):
    - The abbot is removed and scored immediately in 2. Placing a meeple.

- C2 rules:
  - Exp. 5 - Abbey & Mayor:
    - The wagon moves to a valid feature on the same or on an adjacent tile after scoring.
    - At the end of the game, before final scoring, players may not enjoy an extra round to place the remaining abbey tiles.
  - Exp. 6 - Count, King & Robber:
    - Before final scoring, players may redeploy all their meeples in Carcassonne only to fields.
  - Mini #2 - The Messages:
    - There is only 1 rounds of scoring during the turn sequence so players receive messages only at the end of their turn.
  - Halflings:
     - Triangular tiles are not counted individually during scoring. Scoring considers occupied spaces, so two triangular tiles sharing a space are counted as one tile/occupied square spaces.
  - Double-sized tiles (Castles in German, Markets of Leipzig, 20th Anniversary River):
     - Double-sized tiles are not counted individually during scoring. Scoring considers occupied spaces, so in certain scenarios a double-sized scenario may count as two tiles/ocuppied square spaces.
  - The Abbot (aligned with the C2 round2 of scoring):
    - The abbot is removed in 2. Placing a meeple but scored in 3. Scoring a feature as per the 20th Anniversary Edition rules/Carcassonne v3.0/Big Box v3.0/2021.

You can find more information on ruleset changes here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes



>> Publishers:

* HiG stands for Hans-im-Glück, the original publisher of Carcassonne and its spin-offs based in Germany.

* RGG stands for Rio Grande Games, the first publisher releasing Carcassonne in English under license (2000-2012). They included a number of trnaslation mistakes in the rules translations. Notorious cases affect the fairy in the dragon in their translations (you can see the overwhelming number of clarifications in Exp. 3 because of this):
  - The wording delayed the movement of the dragon after scoring although the turn sequences maintained the official turn sequence.
  - The fairy was assigned to all the meeples on its tile... affecting multiple meeples during scoring.

* ZMG stands for Z-Man Games, the current publisher releasing Carcassonne in English under license (2012-). They included a number of trnaslation mistakes in the rules translations. Notorious cases affect the fairy maintaning the error by RGG in C1 (you can see the overwhelming number of clarifications in Exp. 3 because of this) and a numerous mistakes scattered all over Big Box 6 in C2.

You can find more information on mistaken rules in C2 here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes



Big Boxes:

* BB1, BB2, BB3, BB4, BB5, BB6, BB7 stand for Big Box 1... Big Box 7 respectively, following the chronological order of their release. Not all them were publised in all licensed published, BB4 and newer ones are the most common.

Here you can find more info about them, including the expansions included in each of them:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Variants#Big_Boxes




After reading this, you may find interesting to re-read my comments about the dragon rules across editions and publishers. ;)

Have fun!

EDIT: Added some extra info in the intro part.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 05:25:30 AM by Meepledrone »
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Sinscerly

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2022, 12:50:38 PM »
Awesome answers @meepledrone. +1 merit from me.

I came here to say, you only need WICA  O0 O0 O0
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 12:55:03 PM by Sinscerly »
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2022, 12:57:17 PM »
Thanks! ;D

Let's see if some additional info is requested.

Once we are done, we can include this info to an Acronyms FAQ page on the forum. 8)

Offline Schwebels

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2022, 02:41:23 PM »
Is it officially called bb7? I thought we were calling it bb6 C3.0  ;D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2022, 03:04:32 PM »
Depending on the publisher/country, BB7 is called Big Box v3.0 or Big Box 2021 depending on the retailer.

HiG didn't assign numbers to Big Boxes. The numbers are just a convention to represent the chronological release order. If you check this page, you may see the boxes:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Variants#Big_Boxes

Some publishers skipped the oldest ones as you can see here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Collections_and_Expansions#Bigbox1

For example, Devir (publisher in Spanish and Portuguese) released BB4 as their first Big Box. In this case the publisher identified the Bog Boxes by the release year:
Big Box 4 --> Carcassonne-Plus 2012
Big Box 5 --> Carcassonne-Plus 2014
Big Box 6 --> Carcassonne-Plus 2017

So this is why we need a common language to reference them without any ambiguity.

Offline Decar

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2022, 03:34:32 PM »
This is the 7th Big Box published by Hans Im Gluck.
It has identical content to Big Box 6 except the art refresh.

Both boxes have been listed under BoardGameGeek under BigBox 6. Probably at the publisher's request.

Given that Big Box 6 has the same content as Big Box 4, except the art was updated, they... should share the same entry.  All versions of Carcassonne basegame share the same entry.... it's a mess.

+1 for using years and descriptions to describe things rather than arbitrary and meaningless numbers.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2022, 03:56:07 PM »
They are toying with our feelings...  >:D

Let's see how HiG advertises it... But having the tiny difference in the river BB7 is not 100% the same as BB4 or BB6. We are mere puppets in HiG's hands.

Offline totor66

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2022, 10:59:07 PM »
well I disagree, I think there is one source river tile which is different ;)

Worth the price !!!
Carcassonne Fan since 2014

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2022, 11:20:25 PM »
MINDOK described new BigBox as same as 2017 just with updated design is tiles and with awesome rules. And in Slovakia and Czechia is not yet selling (just in Poland) due to still 2017 boxes in stock. So when 2017 will be sold out, they will start selling 2021 box as "reprint".

Offline Willem

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2022, 12:26:40 AM »
well I disagree, I think there is one source river tile which is different ;)

Worth the price !!!

2 actually, the river lake has a monastery in this one!
So worth getting 2, or 3, or 4!

From what I've seen, most publishers have it as the same as BB2017. Almost like the box art is the only difference. Same article number, same listing on their website, etc.
But we probably want to be able to distinguish between the 2 different boxes, as we also do with base games.
We would usually refer to a base game by its printrun edition, or sometimes by year, so we could do the same for these.
I like BB7, just because it's short. It is silly, to have arbitrary numbers that we assign to the big boxes, but I find it easier to remember than what year they first came out (also as some publishers might be a bit later with releasing it, naming what we call BB2021, BB2022 for example)
And it keeps us busy  ;)
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Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2022, 02:23:16 AM »
I think also one Ferry tile is different :D

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2022, 04:47:34 AM »
You are right!

Here you are the differences between BB6 (left) and BB7 (right). Click on the images to zoom in.

>> The River:
- The river source now includes a road
- The river lake now includes a monastery



>> Ferries:
- One of the FRRR lake tiles becomes a RRRR lake tile.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 04:54:02 AM by Meepledrone »

Offline Decar

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2022, 07:12:18 AM »
and look the FRFR tile rotated!  I wonder if it rotated on the tile back too  :o

Offline wolnic

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Re: Help—I need help with acronyms
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2022, 07:50:45 AM »
And a bit of urban development … at least it’s on brown land, rather than green belt …
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 07:52:41 AM by wolnic »
AutumnForest (C2), Catch Of The Day (C1/2/WD), Cliffs&W'falls (C1/2), Coast (C1/2), FishHuts (C2), Fluvium (C2), NewForest (C2), Harvest (C1/2), Stone Circles (C1/2), Wells (C2), Jordan River 2 (AotC), River I/II (GR)
Devt: Sakura (C2), WinterEdge (C1), WinterCoast (WD/WE) and others


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