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76
Official Rules / Clarifications about The Fortune Teller and double turns
« on: January 22, 2021, 05:28:57 PM »
Hi all!

I had a quick exchange with Jputt927 and he answered a couple of questions about The Fortune Teller and double turns.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Here you are the questions:

[Q1] What happens of you decide to place a Halfling or a German castle and then you get a double turn. Do you draw 3 tiles if you have two fortune tellers for the second part of your double turn?

[A1] If triggering a double turn as result of a halfling tile, German castle, etc then you would always draw the maximum tiles that your fortune tellers allow and choose from that.



[Q2] If you draw three tiles and the placement of your first tile grants you a double turn, can you discard the rest and place an abbey, for example? If possible, when could you decide this?

[A2] You would not be allowed to place an abbey or any other special tile. That decision has to be made before triggering your fortune teller and drawing extra tiles.

My understanding from this is that you may not discard voluntarily any tiles (except those that require a bridge to be placed) as usual. But if you have no valid tiles left in your hand, you would be able to either draw up to 3 new tiles again or place a tile from your supply (a German castle, a halfling or an abbey) you will have to draw one tile at a time until you can place it, as per a reply below. So you will not be able to place a tile from your supply (a German castle, a halfling or an abbey).

Hope he shows up again for a couple of more questions I sent him about being allowed to pick a tile with no valid placement to use any actions associated to them (Peasant Revolts, Wheel of Fortune) knowing you will discard it right away.

Cheers!



EDIT: Check some additional answers in the following post:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5009.msg74142#msg74142

77
Official Rules / Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« on: January 19, 2021, 10:05:06 AM »
The question about farmers, barns and watchtowers here reminded me of the issues watchtowers scoring per neighboring meeples pose when they overlap.  >:D

When scoring these two cities, the scoring may differ depending which city is scored first... since some meeples may be removed before the watchtower in the other is evaluated...  :o



In this case, it would seem reasonable to evaluate both watchtowers before both cities so no meeples are removed; otherwise you would get into trouble regarding who makes a decision in case of conflict. This would mean to break the loop where each feature and their bonuses are scored together.

Moreover, we saw in the Advent Quiz an example with castles and robbers (see Question #17) where features were evaluated in an order different than the one used for scoring the points in order to address castle dependencies and to minimize the impact of robbers. I think this principle should be applied in a generic way...

The scoring of a complex scenario combining castles, (meeple) watchtowers and robbers may not resolved in a step based on one loop as suggested in the basic rules. Instead, several steps with one loop each may be required.

The following summary shows the key actions to handle a complex scoring:

1) Identify the features to be scored: completed features, castles completed by them and fields scored due to a barn:
    - This is step to decide which features to score and their order of evaluation
    - It is important for castles which may have even chained dependencies

2) Evaluate points each feature is worth, considering bonuses for features and figures/tokens involved:
    - No points are scored yet
    - No meeples are removed yet

3) Decide the order of scoring:
    - Robbers and opportunities for messages are taken into consideration
    - The decisions made are communicated to the other players so everyone defines their scoring plan

4) Points are scored on the scoreboard
    - The scoring figures are moved
    - Robbers steal points accordingly

5) Meeples are removed if not moved (wagons only)

In the end, players should work with a snapshot of the playing area in order to plan and perform the scoring. After scoring all the required meeples and figures can be removed. Note: So far there is only one documented scoring that happens after all meeples are removed: the big top.

Of course, this would have an impact on the Order of Play so complex cases are reflected properly... This would mean slicing Step 3B in several loops for starters.

Any thoughts?

78
Hi all,

I had a brief exchange with Christof Tisch of HiG about some rules questions. This time we discussed roads, bridges, inns and features affecting tollhouses. I will summarize the answers in following posts.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Cheers!

79
General / Jubilee Speculation Thread
« on: January 01, 2021, 03:44:01 PM »
What do you think this means ?

https://www.facebook.com/Brettspiele/posts/10159111054877299



Congrats Gunho for your first post!

You help us start the year with hope in what's to come! Thanks!

Have you being playing Carcassonne for long? A C1 or a C2 fan? Small games or Mega Carcassonne?

Happy New Year!

 

80
Hi all,

I had a brief exchange with Andreas Kramer of HiG about some rules questions. I started a dialog about Peasant Revolts and some other issues but it was interrupted due to the Advent Sale 2020. I will summarize the answers I got so far.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

Cheers!

81
Unofficial Rules / The Fortune Tellers and other expansions
« on: December 07, 2020, 11:51:12 AM »
Hi all,

I'm working on updating the Order of Reference in WICA to include the PnP expansions and I came across the following issues with the Fortune Teller...

Trying to apply the Fortune Teller rules and to be consistent with the rest of the rules I would assume the following approach:



Handling normal turns

1) You only draw extra tiles if you have to actually have to draw a tile. At that point you are allowed to draw one or two extra tiles to choose one between them.

2) If you place a tile from your supply (purchased tile in a bazaar, an abbey, a German castle or a Halfling), you never draw extra tiles at that point (you never draw tiles in this case). (See Q0 below)

This would be consistent with the fact that these actions are incompatible with drawing a new tile:
- If you purchased a tile, it is mandatory to place it if possible (anything can happen by chance or intentionally).
- If you decide to place some other tile from your supply, you are not allowed to draw a tile either.



Handling double turns

3) If the tile you placed grants you a double turn, the following scenarios may happen depending on what you did:

3.1) In the first part of your double turn you drew a tile as usual and the extra tiles allowed by your fortune teller(s).
   - In this case, you may have at least one extra tile left. You will have to choose one of them, if more than one, and then place it.
   - On the other hand, you may decide to place a tile from your supply and discard the extra tiles left. This is an advantageous position for the player, but you cannot unlearn the extra tiles you had to draw. (See Q1 below)

3.2) In the first part of your double turn you placed a tile from your supply (purchased tile, German castle, Halfling) so you have no extra tiles in your possession. (Note an abbey cannot trigger a double turn.)
   - In this case, you will need to draw a tile and the extra tile(s) corresponding to your fortune tellers, in order to chose one and place it. (See Q2 below)
   - On the other hand, you may decide to place another tile from your supply (abbey, German castle or Halfling). So no tile is drawn again.



Open questions

Here I would consider the following open issues:

Q0: Should be allow to draw extra tiles when placing tiles from your supply?
[I would say no for the sake of consistency.]

Q1: If you drew extra tiles, would you be allowed to discard them all and place a tile from your supply instead?
[I see no other option unless it is agreed that once you draw one or more tiles, you should not allowed to place tiles from your supply]

Q2: If you have to draw a tile and the corresponding extra tiles in the second part of your turn, should you just draw the extra tiles so you have the same number of tiles as if you had drawn these tiles at the beginning of your turn?
[I'm pondering pros and cons here: drawing all the tile in the second part of your double turn would allow you to bend the restriction defined in the rules]

And I have this final one:

Q3: If any of the tiles drawn cannot be placed, what should you do about it?
a) It may be ignored, as there is at least one other tile to choose from
b) A new tile is drawn to replace it and the discarded one is reshuffled if possible (This option would be the usual one when drawing just one tile)
[I would apply answer b) when possible]

Have you come across these situations? Did you apply any other approach?

I would appreciate any thoughts on this matter.


82
Quizzes, Puzzles and Challenges / Carcassonne Central: Advent Quiz MMXX
« on: November 30, 2020, 06:55:37 AM »
Hi all,

For those unaware of what it is really going on, I will just break it for you: Christmas is coming!!! Again... So does Winter... at least in the Northern Hemisphere!

In preparation of the coming events, here at Carcassonne Central, a lot is happening behind the scenes. The Meeple Council is in session discussing whether frozen meeples should considered as Phantoms...

This is just a smoke screen, because the real agenda for today is...

The Advent Calendar Quiz MMXX

Stay tuned, because tomorrow you have a date... Ahem... a date with DESTINY!

83
Unofficial Rules / The Peasant Revolts interactions with other expansions
« on: November 20, 2020, 03:31:15 PM »
You can find the basic version of the rules in WICA here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Peasant_Revolts

I'll start working on the interactions now. Some ideas from the top of my head:

* 1. Placing a Tile - Revolt actions:
   - Happen in Step 1B, so will happen even if the tile cannot be placed (already annotated in WICA)
   - Affect a number of features:
     - Eligible features: roads (and bridges or labyrinths), cities and all monastic buildings (for the sake of consistency)
     - Non-eligible features:
       - Regular features: fields, acrobat spaces, German castles, Baba Yaga´s Hut, German cathedrals, gardens, fortune teller tents
       - Special areas: tower pieces, Exp. 8 castles, Wheel of Fortune, city of Carcassonne, city of Leipzig,  batthouses, Solovei Razboynik tree, Vodyanoy lake,  ...
   - Generate a new scoring event in the same scoring round as the Wheel of Fortune
   - May trigger Messages

* 2. Placing a Meeple - Protecting meeples:
   - Step 2B-1 & 2B-2: Any meeple placed on the eligible features can be protected (yoy pay 4 points).
     - This can be a direct placement or via a magic portal or a flying machine.
     - Meeples placed on a special monastery may need an additional marker due to the ambiguity
   - Step 2B-1: If a meeple is not placed in this step (therefore, no other action in this step takes place), an unprotected meeple already placed on an eligible feature can be protected (you pay 2 points)
   - Step 2B-2: You can place your phantom even if you protected a meeple placed on another tile in Step 2B-2
  Protected meeples can perform any actions normally:
   - Step 2B-1: A protected abbot can be removed and scored
   - Step 2C: A protected meeple can harvest and sell fruit
 
* 3. Scoring a meeple:
  - A protected knight in a small city converted in to a castle, will become unprotected when placed in a castle. (Castles are not cities)
  - A protected wagon: will become unprotected after scoring if moved to another feature? Wording suggests that meeples become unprotected when back into their owner's supply (Open question)
  -  Meeples redeployed cannot be protected (they are deployed and scored right away)

Anything you may want to be clarified?

EDIT: Reviewed wording about the movement of the wagon.

85
General / New Carcassonne logo!
« on: October 19, 2020, 06:01:19 AM »
Hi all,

Did you notice the new Carcassonne logo here?

www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/carcassonne20/our-carcassonne-family.html

Does this mean a new back for the tiles?  >:D

86
Official Rules / The Abbot rules - proposal of new arrangement
« on: September 19, 2020, 05:18:34 AM »
Dear all,

The people at HiG have made a great effort to arrange the rules of Carcassonne in a way that all actions are arranged in 3 phases happening in chronological order:
1. Placing a tile
2. Placing a meeple
3. Scoring a feature

This works fine most of the time, but some expansions add actions that bend this structure. For example,  you may find scorings happening in phases other than 3. Scoring a feature. This is the case of the abbot, when it is removed and scored early, that happens in phase 2. Placing a meeple.

This may seem irrelevant in a normal game but timing is important when The Abbot is combined with other expansions like The Messages, since the abbot scores in a separate round of scoring than all completed features (for example a completed monastery or garden with an abbot  :o)... But this is a different story (if you want to know about rounds of scoring you may check this post) .

My point is that the rules of The Abbot arrange the actions in a slightly different way. They rename phase 3 to 3. Scoring with the abbot and put together the scoring of a completed monastery/garden happening in phase 3 along with the early scoring of the abbot happening in phase 2.

This is the original arrangement of the rules:


The Abbot (excerpt of original rules)

1. Placing a tile
When placing a tile with a garden, you must place it so that it its edges match the edges of tiles already in play.

2. Placing a meeple
When placing a tile with a monastery or garden, you may place your abbot onto the monastery or onto the garden. You may, of course, place a regular meeple onto the monastery, or other features, such as roads, etc. You may not place a regular meeple onto the garden.

3. Scoring with the abbot
When the monastery or garden occupied by your abbot is surrounded by eight tiles, you score 9 points (just like a regular monastery scoring).

On your turn, you may decide to not place a meeple during the 2. Placing a meeple phase, and may instead return your already-placed abbot to your supply. If you do so, you score immediately as many points as the garden or monastery your abbot occupied is worth at that time, exactly like how monasteries are scored during the final scoring.

Final scoring
During final scoring, incomplete monasteries or gardens occupied by abbots are scored the same way as those occupied by monks.



I was wondering if it would be better to rearrange the rules in the following way to phases match the exact chronological order of actions. IMHO this new arrangement would help reader to understand better the sequence of actions and combine this expansions with others.


The Abbot (proposed arrangement)

1. Placing a tile
When placing a tile with a garden, you must place it so that it its edges match the edges of tiles already in play.

2. Placing a meeple
Placing a meeple or your abbot
When placing a tile with a monastery or a garden, you may place either a normal meeple or your abbot. The normal meeple is placed as usual whereas the abbot must be placed on the monastery or garden you've just placed.

Removing and scoring an abbot
In addition, the abbot has a special property. On your turn, you may decide to not place a meeple during phase 2. Placing a meeple, and may instead return your already-placed abbot to your supply. If you do so, you score immediately as many points as the garden or monastery your abbot occupied is worth at that moment, which corresponds to the value of the feature at the end of the game.

3. Scoring with the abbot
When the monastery or garden occupied by your abbot is surrounded by eight tiles, you score 9 points, as in the basic game. The garden is therefore scored the same as a monastery.

Final scoring
During final scoring, incomplete monasteries or gardens occupied by abbots are scored the same way as monasteries occupied by monks.



What arrangement of the rules do you prefer? All your comments are welcome.

Cheers!

87
Online Games and Competitions / JCloisterZone 5.0.0 is under way
« on: September 03, 2020, 11:42:15 AM »
Hi all!

Farin is working on a new release of JCZ v5.0.0 that provides a revamped version of the UI for starters. Here you can see a sneak peek of his work in progress...

https://twitter.com/jcloisterzone/status/1271014289030221825

Below I include an image included in a recent tweet as a treat.  >:D



Congrats Farin fo r this amazing work!

88
General / KJW spin off thread.
« on: August 26, 2020, 06:06:56 AM »
What was the last Carcassonne product that you were actually directly involved in? (my money’s on Hills & Sheep)

On CarcF you can find some pictures of a fan meeting on 20.11.2016 where KJW play tests a prototype of Under the Big Top....

https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=250&t=3545#p44736


(Sorry, Picture visible for CarcF users only)

So he has Exp. 10 under his belt too.

89
Quizzes, Puzzles and Challenges / Little Summer Quiz 2020
« on: August 11, 2020, 04:44:56 AM »
Dear all,

Here you are a tiny quiz to entertain these summer days... I will be posting a few questions you can answer during August. All your answers are welcome.

Have fun!



Question #1:

:red-meeple: places a tile that completes a small city occupied by him and another city occupied by :yellow-meeple:.



Instead of scoring his small city, :red-meeple: decides to convert it into a castle.



How many points do :red-meeple: and :yellow-meeple: score in this scenario?

90
Official Rules / Moving the wagon in C1 and C2...
« on: July 11, 2020, 09:39:27 AM »
If you come from the classical edition (C1 for short), you may probably know that the new edition (C2 for short) modified the rules for the wagon.

The C1 rules indicated that the wagon could move from a completed feature to an adjacent one but didn't specify what "adjacent" meant for them.

The definition of "adjacent" was painstakingly clarified by Kettlefish through a number of conversations with Hig back in 2013, that can be found here:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=214.0

Here you can find a summary of the clarified rules for C1 (link to WICA):
* Adjacency: The wagon could only move to an unoccupied, incomplete feature connected by a road or sharing a surface/edge/wall:
  o Cases allowed:
    - Road to road through a crossing
    - Road to any claimable feature and vice versa: city (through a gate), monastery (or equivalent feature such as an abbey), etc.
    - A city to an adjacent abbey and vice versa
    - A city to a monastery within and vice versa
  o Cases not allowed:
    - Two cities with touching walls or tips on the same or on different tiles.
    - Two cities connected by "small roads" where meeples cannot be placed.
    - Two cities crossing via bridges but no connected via roads.
    - Two roads separated by a feature (any area on a tile that can be claimed by a meeple or that triggers a function)
    - A road touching a city wall with no gate
    - A road running through a city via a tunnel or passing over via a bridge
* Placement: the wagon could be placed on any tile of the chosen unoccupied, incomplete feature.

Because of these limitations HiG decided to change the definition of "adjacent" for the wagon in C2, so now the wagon can move to any unoccupied incomplete feature on the same tile or an adjacent one.

So the thematic coherence that wagons followed roads to move from feature to feature is gone in C2. It was cool in my opinion and the addition of those many limitations is disconnected packets of information made them difficult to trace.

This said, a few days ago, I was revisiting the archived HiG pages in web.archive.org and came across this Exp. 5 FAQ archived between 2014 and 2017...

http://web.archive.org/web/20170728123659/http://www.hans-im-glueck.de/carcassonne/erweiterungen/abtei-und-buergermeister/

Quote
Wohin darf der Wagen?/ Was ist ein angrenzendes Gebiet?

Der Wagen darf in ein angrenzendes Gebiet.
Ein angrenzendes Gebiet ist ein Gebiet (Straße, Stadt, Kloster) welches visuell an ein anderes Gebiet angrenzt.
Dies beinhaltet unter anderem Straßen, die Stadtmauern berühren, Brücken, die andere Gebiete überlagern und Städte, deren Stadtmauern sich berühren.

...that means the following in English...

Quote
Where can the wagon go?/ What is an adjacent area?

The wagon is allowed to move to an adjacent feature.
An adjacent feature is a feature (road, city, cloister/monastery) which is visually adjacent to another feature.
This includes, but is not limited to, roads that touch city walls, bridges that span over other features areas and cities whose walls touch each other.

Look at the parts in red. What the heck...?!? What happened here? Are the automatic translators I'm using failing miserably?

This seems a tweaked version of the C1 clarifications in 2014. Some points get closer to C2: They allow you to jump between cities touching their walls or between features overlapping due to a bridge... Was this the original intent by HiG? Is this an afterthought?

After this finding, I happened to stumble upon a couple of posts in threads from 2017 mentioning this same FAQ but the discussion focused on other aspects of the rules changes, therefore omitting the red part and its implications for C1...

* CarcF (2/2017): https://www.carcassonne-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=292&t=3662#p46509

* CarcC (5/2017): http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3321.msg49363#msg49363

Any thoughts?

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