Carc Central Community > Unofficial Rules
Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
Meepledrone:
--- Quote from: DIN0 on April 19, 2022, 08:20:14 AM ---
--- Quote ---Your view is "spaces beyond the border exist but they cannot be occupied by tiles." So to me, it seems inconsistent, since you do not consider them for the completion of a monastery or Izbushka, but you count them as non-present tiles for Izbushka.
--- End quote ---
That is actually not my view. What I am saying is that spaces do not exist at all and border only prevents placing tiles which would end up beyond the border. I could, for the sake of explanation, say that monastery and Izbushka do consider the spaces beyond border, just do not detect any tiles since they cannot be placed there. But more accurate formulation is that neither of them consider any spaces, period, they only consider tiles. So even if the concept of spaces existed, it would have no bearing on the scoring of these two features, because they do not ever consider them, regardless of the Map or a simple table.
--- End quote ---
OK. If spaces do not exist beyond the border, which I also agree with, then you should not consider them for counting tiles or the absence of tiles. Here is where, I think, our views differ.
A table acts as an infinite unprinted grid. A map acts as an finite grid enclosed by a border serving as a boundary beyond which nothing exists.
--- Quote from: DIN0 on April 19, 2022, 08:20:14 AM ---
--- Quote ---Therefore the border acts like an impenetrable wall, the features only consider the adjacent tiles/spaces within the border.
--- End quote ---
There is no reason to do this. You wouldn't not score the points if it were the edge of the table instead, right? Map border functions exactly the same in this regard. The only extra thing map border has is the finishing ability.
--- End quote ---
The edge of the table does not act as a map border and, unless agreed otherwise before a game, the table could be extended by adding another one or the playing could extended by shifting the tiles to make extra room. The edge of a table does not complete features.
--- Quote from: DIN0 on April 19, 2022, 08:20:14 AM ---
--- Quote --- In this case, the Map rules should take precedence and constrain feature completion and scoring rules to printed spaces.
--- End quote ---
There is no need for precedence, as there is no conflict.
--- End quote ---
What I mean here is that the mapborder defines a boundary that limits the playing area and anything outside it cannot be considered. This should be considered before any other mechanics: feature completion and scoring. A space beyond the printed grid or border does not count as a occupied or unoccupied space: it does not have a tile or it does not lack a tile. It does not exist. We agree on how this affects a monastery but not on how Izbushka show treat it:
* You consider that the lack of a tile has precendece over the imposibility of placing a tile beyond the border. Izbushka considers tiles placed and not placed within the border in addition to tiles not placed beyond the border.
* I consider that the imposibility of placing a tile beyond the border also implies the imposibility of counting the lack of a tile beyond the border. Izbushka only considers tiles placed and not placed within the border.
--- Quote from: DIN0 on April 19, 2022, 08:20:14 AM ---Let me put forth the following analogy:
Imagine you are a feature which scores a point for each goldfish in the cloister-radius around you. You are surrounded by 8 aquariums filled with water with a maximum of 1 goldfish per tank. If all 8 tanks have a goldfish, you score 8 points. If 4 tanks have goldfish and 4 are empty, you only score 4 points.
Now, imagine if 5 tanks have goldfish, but the remainding 3 have perforated bottoms causing the water along with any goldfish to pour out. You would score 5 points. You are saying that you wouldn't even look into the tanks because they are empty with no water for golfish to live in, and therefore not score points. But the reality is you wouldn't get the points simply because you could not find the last 3 goldfish. This is because the only thing you are capable of seeing/not seeing, are the goldfish. And that is the only thing you're looking for. Your eyes cannot see the tanks or water in the first place.
That is how a monastery works
Izbushka works exactly the same, just gets a point for each goldfish it cannot find.
In short Izbushka scores points for absence of tiles - the reason for this absence does not matter. The only way to make a tile not-absent is to actually place the tile. And since you cannot ever do this beyond map border, the tiles are always absent.
--- End quote ---
Here is where we differ. Tiles nor placed outside the border should not be considered. Nothing beyond the border should be considered. This works for monasteries, and so should it be for Izbushka . This is my point.
--- Quote from: DIN0 on April 19, 2022, 08:20:14 AM ---And here is another implication I did not bring up before. If we look at the diagram in the attachment and exchange the monastery for Izbushka, it would score 2 points (1+1) in case A, and 3 points (2+1) in case B. This is because german castles are only considered to be a single tile. So the number of tiles surrounding Izbushka would be A) 7, and B) 6.
Translated to fishtank analogy, the castles are larger fishtanks, but still contain only one goldfish.
--- End quote ---
I didn't want to bring this up into the discussion earlier either (or Halflings):
* C1 counts tiles
* C2 counts occupied spaces
One Halfling adjacent to Izbushka will count as an occupied space even if there is a triangular gap in the same space. And this will be the same for C1 and C2.
Scott:
I get what you're saying DIN0, and I think many others do too, but I think Meepledrone is right here. Just as the value of a monastery depends on your ability successfully surround it with tiles, the value of Izbushka depends on your ability to successfully defend against having it surrounded with tiles. Placing it somewhere where it is not possible to complete, whether that's at the edge of the table or on an island, makes it impossible to fully surround. You believe that this should work to your advantage, and Meepledrone disagrees. Just as the inability to place tiles beyond the edge of the table prevents a monastery from earning those points, Izbushka must also be prevented from earning points in order to be consistent.
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