Author Topic: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?  (Read 1195 times)

Offline Doom_Shark

  • Villein
  • ***
  • Posts: 40
  • Merit: 0
  • I swear I have a life...just not right now
    • View Profile
Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« on: March 20, 2022, 11:19:23 AM »
Has anyone here who has the Maps played them with expansions using their actual rules, rather than just for the tiles as recommended? With or without Map Chips? How did those games go? Were there any interesting rule considerations that came up as a result?

Follow-up question: Have you used special meeples from expansions when playing with Maps? If so, did you use them in place of the recommended two additional normal meeples or in addition to them?

Disclaimer: I don't have and have never played with the maps (well, not yet anyway >:D), I'm just nosy and spend too much time thinking about hypotheticals.

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5842.0

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5310
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2022, 11:43:48 AM »
I tried the Iberian Peninsula map with Map Chips and applying Inns & Cathedrals rules. No extra meeples.

Both cathedral tiles happened to end up in the same city on the southern border of the map through connecting smaller cities. The player owning the resulting city got lots of points obviously, and the other players could not do anything in order to stall or hinder the closing of this large city with the cathedrals due to its location. Too bad...  ;)
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
  • Merit: 46
    • View Profile
    • Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2022, 12:12:24 PM »
Always  :yellow-meeple:

With major and/or mini expansions rules. Never had unsolvable rule issues  :yellow-meeple:
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Online DIN0

  • Viscount
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Merit: 32
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2022, 12:56:20 PM »
Of course! One good use of maps with islands such as Iberian Peninsula or Taiwan is to use Exp. 8 and Russian tiles with them. There you can make good use of the Izbushka (especially with multiple copies) where you can make more points than would be otherwise possible thanks to the 1 tile islands. The bazaar aspect helps with the tile control which is also important here. :yellow-meeple:.

Offline Ker42

  • Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 211
  • Merit: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2022, 07:45:21 AM »
When playing maps, we also use the Traders & Builders rules, figures and tokens.  Works great.  We also include abbots, phantoms, barns and abbeys.  Why not?
It's all fun and games...until the Mirror Zone comes out.

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Duke Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 1643
  • Merit: 21
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2022, 02:17:41 PM »
We create a fan Map of Slovakia which includes 2 cathedral tiles. And it works fine. Only option is when playing with full I&C expansion to exclude cathedral tiles. 4 cathedrals are not good for game.
Also tested other expansion when playing other maps and works fine.
Anyway. Baba Jaga hut.
Here I have a question.
When closing monastery placed on edge of map. We scored it by real cards when finished it. So usually 6 points.
So if you place Baba Yaga to island you can score only one point because arroind Baba Yaga is no free square for tile placement. What do you thing?

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Check JCloisterZone Add-ons with fan expansions and also some Slovak sci/fi projects in English https://www.scifi.sk/en/

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5310
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2022, 03:34:52 AM »
Anyway. Baba Jaga hut.
Here I have a question.
When closing monastery placed on edge of map. We scored it by real cards when finished it. So usually 6 points.
So if you place Baba Yaga to island you can score only one point because arroind Baba Yaga is no free square for tile placement. What do you thing?

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

It should be as you say in order to be consistent with the scoring of monasteries on the border. Baba Yaga's Hut should only consider those empty spaces that could be considered for a monastery if occupied by tiles.

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Duke Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 1643
  • Merit: 21
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2022, 09:44:17 AM »
Anyway. Baba Jaga hut.
Here I have a question.
When closing monastery placed on edge of map. We scored it by real cards when finished it. So usually 6 points.
So if you place Baba Yaga to island you can score only one point because arroind Baba Yaga is no free square for tile placement. What do you thing?

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

It should be as you say in order to be consistent with the scoring of monasteries on the border. Baba Yaga's Hut should only consider those empty spaces that could be considered for a monastery if occupied by tiles.

Thanks. I was using my brain started to last weekend tournament in Hunters & Gatherers (E2) on Czech forum meeting.

So As I read it correctly, Baba Yaga placed on island scores 1 point, right?

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5310
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2022, 10:17:33 AM »
Yes, if there are no adjacent empty spaces on the island. The same if any adjacent spaces on the island are occupied by tiles.

Online DIN0

  • Viscount
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Merit: 32
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2022, 01:45:23 PM »
Nope. As I explained in this topic and also another one in the past, by placing the Izbushka on the 1-tile island, you score 9 points (8+1) because there are zero tiles around it. That is how the tile works. It is currently the only way to exceed the usual upper limit of 8 points.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 01:51:08 PM by DIN0 »

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Duke Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 1643
  • Merit: 21
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2022, 01:55:22 PM »
Yes I know. I read it before.
But finally play multiple games on maps and figured out that it.s against principles of rules.
By map rules monastery is completed when surrounded by max of possible square places around monastery available on map. So for example 5 tiles.
But island has no surrounded squares for placement of tiles. So when placed monastery, it's automatically completed and scores 1 point by monastery tile itself
When placed Baba Yaga, then you can't score empty surrounded spaces because there are none
Also when placed in previous example with monastery or border and surrounded by 5 tiles. If there will be Baba Yaga ten there are not 3 empty places. There are none. So no extra points for Baba Yaga.
This is my understanding of Border of map.

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku


Offline corinthiens13

  • Baron
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
  • Merit: 46
    • View Profile
    • Order of play in french with every major expansions, mini expansions and promo tiles :
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2022, 10:30:25 PM »
I also understand the border of map as "out of the game" unconsidered area, not as empty space. Baba Yaga on island = 1 point.
Baba Yaga's rules of course couldn't be consistent with that, since before the maps, there was no way to have a space that couldn't be occupied by a tile  :yellow-meeple:

Edit: Square spaces on maps are squares printed on the map (unlike regular games, in which the whole playing field is composed of fictive square spaces). Border of map is not composed of square spaces, since they aren't printed, so there's no empty spaces around the islands.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 10:34:10 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Meepledrone

  • Owner
  • Chatelain Officier
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5310
  • Merit: 408
  • It is full of... Meeples!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2022, 01:51:35 AM »
The's the point: non-printed squares on a map cannot be considered for monasteries or Baba Yaga's Hut for the sake of consistence.

Online DIN0

  • Viscount
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Merit: 32
  • Carcassonne is only complete with 11th expansion:)
    • View Profile
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2022, 03:58:00 AM »
That is incorrect. There seems to be a misunderstanding of the rules here. In that case I am going to present here the precise mechanics of what is (and isn't) going on.
First of, you seem to be working under the assumption that Izbushka somehow needs to be consistent with any rules for the cloister - that is not substantiated anywhere. The meeple there is not a monk and it is not a monastic building. The rules may have referered to it as "anti-cloister", but that is merely to give the reader a quick idea of how it works without spending too much text. It is a descriptive sentence, not a prescriptive one.
The border of the map has a special property which finishes the features on its edge, so the feature in question behaves as if it were finished, but that itself has no additional bearing on the scoring.
Now I am going to move on to the most important parts of this write-up, sections A and B - section A explaines why even if the current flawed understanding was correct, it would not prevent Izbushka from scoring points as some of you claim. Section B explaines how Izbushka actually works and why it is pointless to even argue about anything in section A. Here goes...

A) There is no such thing as empty tile space - this is something people refer to as being a prerequisite for Izbushka scoring, but the truth is empty tile spaces do not exist. They are not a real entity within the game and never were - that is assuming Carcassonne is played on a physical grid like chess, while it isn't. One can make an imaginary grid, yes, but that is an infinite plane decided by the starting tile(s) and can be placed anywhere in the physical space. You can look at the edge of the playing field where a tile could be placed next to another tile and call it an empty tile space, but the physical space itself is not a part of the game until a tile is actually placed there - until then it is "out of the game" just like the edge of the Map. All the Carcassonne Maps do is give you a suggestion of where to initiate the imaginary grid (starting cities) and sometimes place an extra tile for you (big cities). The edge of the Map is simply an edge of legal tile placement + a special property mentioned in the beginnig. The imaginary grid and "empty tile spaces" do not stop there they just become illegal placements.
We see this exact scenario (barring the special finishing property of Maps) when playing on a table. According to official rules, the edge of the table is the edge of legal placements for the tiles - that does not mean the "empty tile spaces" suddenly dissapear. Also, it's not like the imaginary grid has to align with the table - it is often the case that the tile on the edge barely balance to stay in play, sometimes being almost halfway in the air, yet you wouldn't say the other half doesn't exist right? Nor would you substract any points from an Izbushka placed on the edge of the table just because there are no legal placements for at least 3 tiles around it. That is because the "empty tile spaces" are still there, just inaccesible by legal play.
Map borders are nothing more than the edge of the table with few extra properties (affecting the completeness of features only!).

B) But all of that is irrelevant anyway - even if we were to grant the unrealistic status of empty tile spaces and say "they are a real entity which do not exist beyond Map borders and thus Izbushka cannot score them", that wouldn't matter anyway because that is not how it works in the first place.
The rules on WICA currently state that Izbushka "scores 1 point for every empty tile space"  with the empty tile spaces even bolded like I did. This however is incorrect - Izbushka does not score points for empty tile spaces. I repeat, Izbushka does not score points for empty tile spaces. it is a mistranslation stemming all the way from CAR. The actual rules state the following:

"В конце игры вы получите по одному победному очку за каждый отсутствующий квадрат местности вокруг избушки и 1 очко за саму избушку."

At the end of the game you score 1 victory point for each missing landscape tile around Izbushka and 1 point for the Izbushka itself.

...for each missing landscape tile..., not each empty tile space - that is a big difference.
The Izbushka does not score points for a presence of an empty tile spaces, but it does for an absence of landscape tiles. Even if you claim there are no empty tile spaces around Izbushka, that is irrelevant because that is not the source of points for Izbushka. It is the absent tiles which give you the points and in the case of a 1-tile island there are 8 missing tiles. Whether the tiles can be legally placed there is irrelevant, all that matters is if they are there or not - just like at the edge of the table.

So please do not feed the misconception further - the mistranslation should be corrected.

Offline Bumsakalaka

  • Duke Chevalier
  • *
  • Posts: 1643
  • Merit: 21
  • Fan of Fan expansions
    • View Profile
    • www.scifi.sk
Re: Has anyone tried any Maps with other expansion rules?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2022, 04:28:26 AM »
@DIN0 thanks for long and useful explanation.


But I beg to disagree with conclusion.


My point of view is, that when scoring Baba Yaga, player is punished if Baba Yaga is surrounded by tiles.
I understand also that Baba Yaga rules not calculate with Maps rules, because maps was not created in time when Baba Yaga tile born.
So we have to find consistency of existing rules with something new. This is main rule of CAR and it's accessor WiCa.


So, basic rule for maps for cities, roads, monasteries, is that there are counted only printed tiles and squares to place tiles.


So if we speak a about Monasteries, we also speak about other expansions.


But back to Baba Yaga:
I want to ask: What happens when you place Baba Yaga to island in phase 1 and place meeple in phase 2 on it?
Do you immediately finish your turn or you score Baba Yaga?


If you score Baba Yaga immediately in your turn, then you are using maps rules, but then when you calculate empty spaces you are not using maps rules. And this is inconsistency.


So for me, there are two options (example when Baba Yaga is placed on island):


1. Use regular Carcassonne rules for Baba Yaga, then meeple on Baba Yaga stays on tile until end of game because it is not possible to completely surrounded Baba Yaga with 8 tiles. Then Baba Yaga can score full points.
- but this is against maps rules that end of map automatically "end" feature used in Cities and for example Monasteries.


2. Use maps rules for Baba Yaga - then placement of meeple on Baba Yaga is scored in same turn, because Baba Yaga is completely surrounded, and count of empty spaces around island is 0 = zero. Which means, Baba Yaga will score max 1 point.





Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via furl Share via linkedin Share via myspace Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via technorati Share via twitter

  Subject / Started by Replies / Views Last post
xx
Has anyone had a virtual stroll around Carcassonne?

Started by Squiffything

2 Replies
1410 Views
Last post June 28, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
by ARabidMeerkat
question
which carcassonne expansion has a house symbol on its tiles?

Started by mamool1984

10 Replies
1825 Views
Last post February 07, 2020, 04:12:40 AM
by mamool1984
xx
The GQ#11 Expansion for sale - HAS BEEN SOLD

Started by Halfling

0 Replies
217 Views
Last post January 26, 2022, 02:43:53 AM
by Halfling
xx
HiG has a new homepage design

Started by kettlefish

8 Replies
2733 Views
Last post October 28, 2017, 07:29:22 AM
by kettlefish
xx
US Asmodee Shop has some discounted Carcassonne

Started by flipshot

1 Replies
1141 Views
Last post January 16, 2020, 12:38:29 AM
by DaFees