Author Topic: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?  (Read 717 times)

Offline Sir Lose-a-Farm

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Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« on: September 28, 2022, 02:49:24 PM »
Look at the following scenario:



Let's say gray close the road by placing a tile in the yellow X spot.
How many points do they get? How many points does green get instead?

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=6093.0
I forgot to score the fairy bonus point. Again.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2022, 09:24:44 PM »
The completition of one castle will trigger the completition of the second one  :yellow-meeple:
There are many clarifications about such scenarios in https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition) see footnotes.
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Offline Sir Lose-a-Farm

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2022, 10:11:18 AM »
The completition of one castle will trigger the completition of the second one  :yellow-meeple:
There are many clarifications about such scenarios in https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars_(1st_edition) see footnotes.

Tried to do that but we got lost. A little help?  :green-meeple: :gray-meeple: Gray gets 5 points for the road. Then both gray and green get 5 points because the just finished road is a neighbouring feature of both their castles. But then gray triggers the completion to green AND green triggers the completion to gray? It seems weird.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2022, 12:14:33 PM »
Once a castle is triggered, you takes its meeple off. It can't be triggered twice. So that's 10 points for gray, and 5 for green.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2022, 01:04:35 PM »
I love these cases when you have multiple dependencies.  >:D

In this case you hav the following:
1) Road occupied by :gray-meeple: --> castle occupied by :green-meeple: (unidirectional road-to-castle dependency)
2) Road occupied by :green-meeple: --> castle occupied by :green-meeple: (unidirectional road-to-castle dependency)
3) Castle occupied by :green-meeple: <--> castle occupied by :gray-meeple: (bidirectional castle-to-castle dependency)

Due to the circular dependency between the castles, the simplest thing is to evaluate the features by dependency order following the chain reaction, so a castle is evaluated after all the features it depends on are evaluated (even other castles). Any castles with mutual dependencies, will have to be evaluated together after all the features they depend on are evaluated (unless necessary, I won't get here into those cases where some castles have several features triggering them - so they have to choose one for their scoring :o).

In this case, our sequnce of choice will be as follows:
1) The road (worth 5 points)
2) The castles:
    - Each of them will score the same number of points the road is worth (5 points)
    - They both must also score the same number of points (5 points) due to the mutual dependency, which is also correct by default, since they are also triggered by the same road.

Bottomline:
* :gray-meeple: scores 10 points (5 points for the road + 5 points for the castle)
* :green-meeple: scores 5 points for the castle

It may seem a bit cumbersome, but in the end is not that complicated. ;)
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Online Bumsakalaka

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2022, 01:05:55 PM »
Once a castle is triggered, you takes its meeple off. It can't be triggered twice. So that's 10 points for gray, and 5 for green.
Well, it will be maybe better to make different example.
Imagine two castles and by placed tile you finish two different features, lets say 2 points road and 5 points road.
Active player will tell, which road is scored first. So if he decided to score 2 tiles road first, castles will scores just 2 points. But if 5 tiles road, castles will score 5 points.
Question is @Meepledrone What if in this situation is none meeples. Can active player decide to score 2 tiles road first?
(Sorry, I have Carc on cabin, so connot create expample)
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Online Bumsakalaka

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2022, 01:09:17 PM »
Ok. JCZ helped me

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2022, 02:00:21 PM »
And now you have the detailed answers  :yellow-meeple:

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2022, 03:07:00 PM »
Once a castle is triggered, you takes its meeple off. It can't be triggered twice. So that's 10 points for gray, and 5 for green.
Well, it will be maybe better to make different example.
Imagine two castles and by placed tile you finish two different features, lets say 2 points road and 5 points road.
Active player will tell, which road is scored first. So if he decided to score 2 tiles road first, castles will scores just 2 points. But if 5 tiles road, castles will score 5 points.
Question is @Meepledrone What if in this situation is none meeples. Can active player decide to score 2 tiles road first?
(Sorry, I have Carc on cabin, so connot create expample)

The issue here is that the rules do not cover all the cases:
* If several features trigger the scoring of one castle, the player occupying the castle decides the feature to score points for.
* If several features trigger the scoring of multiple castles owned by different players and the castles have mutual dependencies, it is not clarified who makes the final decision... The active player may be involved or not in the scoring.

JCZ decides to score the interdependent castles for the feature scoring the most points. This is a simple solution that may not be the preferred one for some players if playing with messages and/or robbers (some players may be interested in scoring less points in order to receive a message or to reduce the points stolen by a robber). If not all players agree to score the most points, who is entitled to make the final decision? Nobody knows... :o

Ok. JCZ helped me

Ha ha ha!  :(y) :(y)



In this case you have the following:
1) An unoccupied road with 2 tiles ending at a monastery (worth 2 points)
2) An unoccupied road with 3 tiles ending at two villages (worth 3 points)
3) A castle occupied by :yellow-meeple:, triggered by both roads (worth 2 or 3 points depending on its owner)
4) A castle occupied by :blue-meeple:, triggered by the 3-tile road (worth 3 points or whatever points the other castle is worth)
5) Both castles have a circular dependency (both castles should score the same)

Two outcomes are possible in this case:
* Both players score the most points (as in JCZ), the same as the 3-tile road:
   - :blue-meeple: scores 3 points for their castle
   - :yellow-meeple: scores 3 points for their castle
* Both players score the least points (agreed for any reason), the same as the 2-tile road:
   - :blue-meeple: scores 2 points for their castle
   - :yellow-meeple: scores 2 points for their castle

If the players would not reach an agreement (one wants to score 2 points and the other 3 points), who is to entitled to make a decision for them? The active player? This may be an option, but neither the rules nor any clarification up to date cover this case.

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2022, 10:45:19 PM »
What about this rule?
Quote
If a tile is placed that causes multiple features that are neighboring your castle to be completed at the same time, you decide what order they are scored. As always, you only score points for the first feature."
I think similar rule is in MINDOK rules.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2022, 11:52:35 PM »
The use of "you" in C2 is a rather ambiguous, since readers may understand "you" represents the active player (i.e. the player placing the tile triggering the castle scoring), but the rules are referring to the player scoring for a castle (i.e. the castle owner).:

Quote
* If a tile is placed that causes multiple features that are neighboring your castle to be completed at the same time, you decide which of them to receive points for. A castle can only get points from one single feature.
* Two or more incomplete castles may be standing next to each other. If one of them scores points, it will be considered as a completed feature for the adjacent castles. All the castle owners receive the same number of points.

C1 is clearer, indicating the decision is made by the castle owner stright away:

Quote
* Should the placement of a tile simultaneously complete more than one structure adjacent to the castle, the occupier of the castle may decide which of them to receive points for. A castle receives points for only one completed structure.
* As a town which is converted into a castle is not considered to have been completed, it is possible for two occupied castles to be located next to each other. In this case, when one of the castles score points, it counts as a completed structure for the other, and both receive the same points.

So the active player may not be involved at all in the decision. They issue is I commented earlier is not covered in the rules: What if the a tile placement completes multiple features  triggers the scoring of two castles which may score the same points but the castle owners do not agree on which feature to pick? Who is the referee in this case?

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2022, 05:37:40 AM »
I think that there is a clear misinterpretation of the castle rules here. in my opinion, it is not mandatory that castles score the same number of points in case both castles are triggered by more than one completed feature.

The examples for both C1 and C2 handle examples in which only one castle is triggered by the scoring of multiple features. If there happens to be a second castle in the first castle's area, it is evident that both castles score the same number of points. These are just examples to show what happens if one castle is triggered by the scoring of another castle, and only by that other castle.

But if several castles are triggered individually by multiple scoring events, then each castle owner can choose which scoring feature he wants to take for his castle. In 99% of the cases, both owners will choose the highest score and will score the same number of points. But if you play with expansions like for instance the Messages, it could occur that a castle owner would accept a lower score.


Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2022, 01:48:02 PM »
Yep, only those castles that are mutually depedent will score the same points.

A castle owner may choose the points for their castle among multiple triggering features if there are no other applicable contraints such a mutual dependency between castles. These mutual dependencies will pose a limitation to choose the points to score.

Offline Bagge

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2022, 07:30:09 PM »
I have the rules in English and Germany and don't literally read that 2 Castles next to each other HAVE to score the same points (they mention it more as example where they probably assume there is only 1 other completed feature triggering one Castle scoring that triggers the next Castle).
They write that a castle scoring is considered as a scoring feature and as the Castle owner may decide which feature scores his Castle, they could in my opinion have different scoring values.

For the example above from Bumsakalaka,
- The Yellow Castle can choose for 2 or 3 points or the Castle value of the Blue Castle (which would score 3 points as the Yellow Castle didn't decide yet)
- The Blue Castle can choose for 3 points or the castle value chosen by the Blue Castle (so probably 3, but maybe 2)

So for me the question is more, in what order are the Castles scored, but I think when all involved players (hopefully only 2 castles at the same time) make there choice the pther ones can change there mind acordingly to there choice.. maybe do a round (or more when a players Castle is onlty triggered by another player Castle still left from him) starting from the activate player to decide there Castle scoring values.

Anyway, I agree this might be a complicated situation ;)
Practically I think mostly they would agree on the same value

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Two castles close to each other: what happens in this case?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2022, 03:58:26 PM »
When castles hav a mutual dependencies, you would score all the features they depend on before these castles. Then players may decide what points to score. Normally, they would agree to score points for the feature worth the most points.

Note: When messages or robbers are involved, some players may prefer to score the least points possible. In case of conflict, there is no clarification about who makes the final decisions, but the active player could be an option (although their decision may not be impartial in some cases >:D)


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