Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Community Rules (Meepledrone & Friends) => Topic started by: Meepledrone on December 11, 2021, 10:01:50 AM
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ML02. When sending a meeple to Leipzig, a meeple has to be on a road connected to Leipzig via villages. If any crossroads is occupied by trees instead, the connection is not possible and the meeple will not be allowed to be sent to Leipzig.
(https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5601.0;attach=16343)
Example: The meeple on the road connected to Leipzig via a crossroads with trees cannot be sent to Leipzig.
Current understanding:
* The rules require villages so trees or any other feature (monasteries, castles, crop circles, the Bogatyr stone, bazaars, festival fairs…) on a crossroads will not be allowed.
Proposals:
* Comunity Rule clarifying this case
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What about the two tiles in Hills and Sheep that feature a couple of buildings splitting the road? Could be regarded as a hamlet, rather than a village.
If we're being pedantic a 3-way junction is not a "crossroads" ... ;)
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I don't like this.original rules. Count of villages on whole Carc is very small. Power of this mini is then very small. :(
I preffer Variant that meeple can go to Leipzig if multiple wagon moves by C1 rules allow that.
Like from road to road (over tower), road to monastery then monastery to road (RR tile with monastery on center of tile), road to city and city to road.
This is called advanced variant.
Basic variant is only road-road. So if two roads are connected by any of list, meeple can go to Leipzig.
1. Village
2. Monastery
3. Trees on junction
4. Tower foundation
5. Acrobats place
6. Circus space
7. Bazaar
8. Fruit tree
9. Watchtower
10. German Cathedral
11. Small house on road
Anyway. Junction has to be allowed. Those roads are connected.
Also road road with small house divided road to two.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
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What about the two tiles in Hills and Sheep that feature a couple of buildings splitting the road? Could be regarded as a hamlet, rather than a village.
If we're being pedantic a 3-way junction is not a "crossroads" ... ;)
Above I was using the term "crossroads" somewhat loosely. I maybe should have called it junction with trees.
The Toolkeepers provides a very precise definition of what a crossroads is supposed to be for the game (these would be the only junctions connecting roads allowed to place a tollhouse on and to send a meeple to Leipzig as per the rules too):
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tollkeepers#2._Placing_a_meeple (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Tollkeepers#2._Placing_a_meeple)
You may only place your tollhouse on top of crossroads. A crossroad is a village with 2-4 roads. A city or monastery with two or more roads doesn't count as a crossroad.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/f/f8/Tollkeepers_C2_Feature_Crossroads.png)
C1 versions of 3-road and 4-road crossroads:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/f/f1/Base_Game_C1_Tile_23.jpg)(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/a/a8/Base_Game_C1_Tile_24.jpg)
So the key element is a village ending 2 to 4 roads. The base game only includes crossroads with 3 or 4 roads.
As you mention, Exp. 9 also features two roads ending at a "cottage" (or a "hamlet" as you called it) which is neither a full-blown village nor the usual standalone yellow-roofed farmhouse (C2 can be more confusing for its larger illustration but C1 shows a tiny cottage)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/9/90/Hills_And_Sheep_C2_Tile_E.jpg)(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/d/d2/Hills_And_Sheep_C1_Tile_12.jpg)
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/7/7c/Hills_And_Sheep_C2_Tile_F.jpg)(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/7/72/Hills_And_Sheep_C1_Tile_03.jpg)
...or a cottage ending a road as well (a similar example can also be found in Exp. 5):
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/f/f8/Hills_And_Sheep_C2_Tile_P.jpg)(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/d/d9/Hills_And_Sheep_C1_Tile_05.jpg)
Is this C1 cottage promoted to a hamlet in C2? (Note: I used the term "road cottage" in the Tile Reference to address these features, different from the C1 standalone "farm cottage" and the C2 yellow-roofed farmhouse)
In this case, like some other the C1 version of the tiles makes the distinction clearer to my eyes.
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I don't like this.original rules. Count of villages on whole Carc is very small. Power of this mini is then very small. :(
I preffer Variant that meeple can go to Leipzig if multiple wagon moves by C1 rules allow that.
Like from road to road (over tower), road to monastery then monastery to road (RR tile with monastery on center of tile), road to city and city to road.
This is called advanced variant.
Basic variant is only road-road. So if two roads are connected by any of list, meeple can go to Leipzig.
1. Village
2. Monastery
3. Trees on junction
4. Tower foundation
5. Acrobats place
6. Circus space
7. Bazaar
8. Fruit tree
9. Watchtower
10. German Cathedral
11. Small house on road
Anyway. Junction has to be allowed. Those roads are connected.
Also road road with small house divided road to two.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
This would defeat the intent of the rules for the wagon and Markets of Leipzig if you open this much the range of features allowed. HiG was discarding roads connected to any feature that could be claimed and scored or would trigger an action... until they broke their own rules with the addition of tollhouses (an edge case).
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Of course it's arbitrary - every single expansion in C2 has the clause about "being designed for base game only".
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HiG wants to make more money with expansions but doesn't want to assume the responsibility that this implies in expanding the rules of Carcassonne's universe... It isn't fair for the Carcassonne game itself that deserves seriousness and coherence as it should ... But this already seems somewhat frivolous and it takes away prestige on the ludic's world...
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Except large expansions. They have part with interactions with other large expansions.
Also HiG solve clarifications ofly for base game, expansion - base game and large expansion - large expansion questions.
All questions with interaction between any mini expansion with another expansions (large or mini) are anwered by their prime directive.
But maybe in C3 situation will be changed. How know :)
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Except large expansions. They have part with interactions with other large expansions.
Also HiG solve clarifications ofly for base game, expansion - base game and large expansion - large expansion questions.
All questions with interaction between any mini expansion with another expansions (large or mini) are anwered by their prime directive.
But maybe in C3 situation will be changed. How know :)
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
Anyway it's sad... I vote to create a crowfunding to send Meepledrone to HiG and fix all the mess that they create... Who is joining?
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We all know and suffer from this. The aim here is to discuss what would seem most appropriate in these undefined cases.
So getting back to business:
* In a C2 base game you have 8 junctions with villages and none with trees. This is the target for Markets of Leipzig.
* In a C1 base game you have 5 junctions with villages and 3 with trees. This is not the target for Markets of Leipzig, since the Tanners quarter bonus, for example, relies on symbols that do not exist in C1 tiles (i.e. sheds) and farmhouses that may compare to those tiny farm cottages (the compatibility issue is covered in a different question).
The point here is if we should treat junctions with trees equivalent to junctions with villages (I'm avoiding the use of the word crossroads ;)) for Markets of Leipzig and making a coherent decision keeping an eye on Th Tollkeepers:
* Pros:
* C1 compatibility: The C1 base game distribution would be equivalent and provide the same number of junctions (with and without villages).
* C1 and C2 road adjacency: Junctions with trees do not pose a connectivity issue for roads, since there is not feature in between.
* Cons:
* C2 rules demand villages: The Market of Leipzig rules require villages at junctions.
* C2 relevance of villages: The Tollkeepers have turned villages into a claimable feature for tollhouses. Would it be thematically coherent to place a tollhouse on a junction with trees the same as on a junction with a village?
* C2 graphic decisions affecting the tile distribution: At a certain point, HiG discarded junctions with trees from the base game (check the CRRR tile with the red meeple bottom right, which was included by mistake in this Mini #4 - The Goldmines example). It would have reopened the open junction issue.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/9/99/Gold_Mines_C2_Example_03.png)
Please compare it to this junction with trees included in Exp. 3 - The Princess & the Dragon:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/e/e7/Princess_And_Dragon_C2_Tile_D.jpg)
I acknowledge all these issues but currently I'm inclined to consider only villages for Markets of Leipzig and The Tollkeepers. It is clear to me that HiG didn't care about the lack of backwards compatibility, so twisting the C2-only rules to make room for full-blown C1 compatibility can become awkward... Nevertheless, we can provide a Community Rule to provide a certain degree of compatibility on a separate discussion.
In this case, it is a matter of thematic integrity vs. tile distribution.
What do you think?
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Hmm, back to junction. I suppose, that that "village" is used to purpose, that road end and there is space between them.
It's pitty that we "can't" ask HiG this because in Carc 2.0 and Carc 3.0 and Carc20Years is not junction tile :(
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It seems this topic is a controversial one... >:D
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Haha, anyway I can imagine, that from now, HiG will only answer question about Carc 3.0 :D
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Mmm maybe could be an alternative rules for C1 and change a little bit the name calling ‘markets of (another village)’…
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It seems that the merchants going to Leipzig need to go through villages to buy and sell new goods and have some rest... If they go through roads connected by trees, they may be robbed and have little rest when camping under the sky. ???
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For me it should be based on wagon C1 movement but for roads only. No problem with multiple jumps from road to road to road, with trees or small cottage blocking them. But if there is cloister or similar claimable feature in a way other than road , it's no good.
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Ha ha ha! Are you going to use C1 wagon criteria as a reference for a C2 expansion that ignores C1 altogether? :o
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Ha ha ha! Are you going to use C1 wagon criteria as a reference for a C2 expansion that ignores C1 altogether? :o
If you put it that way, but it could be it's own road-to-road Leipzig criteria :D
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It seems that the merchants going to Leipzig need to go through villages to buy and sell new goods and have some rest... If they go through roads connected by trees, they may be robbed and have little rest when camping under the sky. ???
Hahaha, this post made me change my opinion and vote! ;D
Good job Meepledrone! I like these "thematic" rules, very easy to explain.
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I think answers in this poll are very "juristical".
"Should be a meeple send to Leipzig over road junction or over cotage (like over village with crossroads)?"
Answers: Yes & No
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It seems that the merchants going to Leipzig need to go through villages to buy and sell new goods and have some rest... If they go through roads connected by trees, they may be robbed and have little rest when camping under the sky. ???
That's my headcanon for it. We are a C2 household and we play rules as written for Markets of Leipzig and Tollkeepers - Villages only.
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Hmm. Tollkeepers are different thing. That toll keeper placement to village have sense.
But not allow to go meeple to Leipzig over tree road junction has no sense.
Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku
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ML02
When sending a meeple to Leipzig, a meeple has to be on a road connected to Leipzig via villages. If
any crossroads is occupied by trees instead, the connection is not possible and the meeple will not be
allowed to be sent to Leipzig.
I agree with you - the crossing with trees isn't a village. - That means no Leipzig bonus and no meeple goes to Leipzig.
But I will contact someone who was working onto this expansion.
I decide not to vote yet.
In this topic are some more examples - that is a bit confusing me.
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What examples do you find confusing?
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What examples do you find confusing?
When I see the gold nuggets - that has nothing to do with the Markets of Leipzig.
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The goldmines example image was just to illustrate that HiG had replicated the tile distribution of the C1 base game for C2 initially, but in the end they removed any junctions with trees in the base game. The only case present was the CRRR tiles.
The goldmines image below includes a CRRR tile from the base game that doesn't exist in C2 (a work-in-progress version?). It actually shows an open junction, which already posed an issue in C1. See the tile on the right with the Red Meeple:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/9/99/Gold_Mines_C2_Example_03.png)
Here is the original design of the CRRR tile in C1 Base game:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/2/22/Base_Game_C1_Tile_18.jpg)
Here is the final design of the CRRR tile in C2 Base game:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/9/90/Base_Game_C2_Tile_L.jpg)
All this was just to add some additional info to the discussion about villages for the Markets of Leipzig. When combining Markets of Leipzig with the C1 base game, you have 3 crossroads with villages less than when playing with the C2 base game.
In any case, this design change was intentional, and so must be the explicit reference to crossroads with villages in The Markets of Leipzig and The Tollkeepers (if I may). Villages mark the crossroads associated to their mechanics.
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Honestly to me, the wording of the rules for both Markets of Leipzig and Tollkeepers are clearly trying to convey the difference between "normal featureless crossroads" and a "feature ending multiple roads". They make it clear that connection via non-feature road terminations is the adequate one, instead of connection via a real feature which terminates road thus creating a crossroad. They even linger on this distinction:
You may only place your tollhouse on top of crossroads. A crossroad is a village with 2-4 roads. A city or monastery with two or more roads doesn't count as a crossroad.
It is only circumstantial that the C2 base uses village illustrations as their only visual road-exclusive road terminator.
This is even more apparent when we remind ourselves that all of the C2 expansions are designed only with base game in mind, so any further artistic depictions of featurless crossroads probably didn't even cross the designer's minds, because the only point of reference for a featureless crossroads in base game are the ones with a village. Also one would think if this "village" was a dedicated and distinct small illustration, they would include it in the list of small illustartions along with gardens, farmhouses, sheds, highwaymen and (still unused) watertowers...
The best way to think about this is like a C1 wagon. Any crossroad a C1 wagon would be able to move through also serves as a connection to Leipzig and also should be viable for tollhouse placement.
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C2 does things that would prevent a C1 wagon from moving. For example, this juction with a festival would not allow a C1 wagon to cross over, since it triggers a function:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/2/21/Festival15-06.png)
The same tile in C1 had a junction with trees:
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/e/ef/Festival10_C1-06.png)
Check the following clarifications:
The wagon cannot drive through any feature to get to another feature. Features are any aspect of the tile that can be claimed by a follower or that triggers a function, including cloisters, bazaars, crop circles, fairs, etc. [Note: this represents a reversal of a previous clarification. Previously, unclaimable structures such as fairs were not considered features and could be driven through to a road on the other side.] (5/2013)
So this analogy would not serve as a reference either.
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Wether or not the C2 Festival shift from trees to festival tents constitutes a feature is a different topic altogether. If we assume those tents are indeed non-passable by C1 wagon, this does not discredit the analogy. If it is a feature and wagon cannot pass it, then it isn't a village either and the connection to Leipzig is severed. So the analogy works.
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So far, they only way to explore this with HiG is to ask them what happens with the roads connected to Leipzig via CRRR tiles from the C1 base game. This way they cannot say this is an interaction with other expansions.
You can appeal to the lower probability to connect a road to Leipzig in the C1 base game, but who knows the outcome and who knows the possibility of extending their answer to other expansions.
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We have luck that these rules doesn't contain part that this expansions is based only for new Edition of game :D
But this is very nice catch!
And I suppose, they will approve it. Because it has no sense that it will not be possible.
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If we're being pedantic a 3-way junction is not a "crossroads" ... ;)
Mind you, you'd be cross too if people kept getting your name wrong.
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If you check The Tollkeepers you will find:
You may only place your tollhouse on top of crossroads. A crossroad is a village with 2-4 roads. A city or monastery with two or more roads doesn't count as a crossroad.
(https://wikicarpedia.com/images/f/f8/Tollkeepers_C2_Feature_Crossroads.png)
What can we do about it?
I would prefer to call them junctions with villages... Would it be right? ;)