Author Topic: The Dragon  (Read 661 times)

Offline PapaGeek

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The Dragon
« on: November 18, 2021, 05:26:48 AM »
We are considering the addition of The Princess & the Dragon expansion to our games, but the rules on WikiCarPedia are not clear.

There are 6 Volcano and 12 Dragon tiles but only 1 Dragon!  If you draw a Dragon tile before any Volcano tiles are drawn, put it on the side until the first Volcano tile is played.

If I understand how this works, each time a Volcano is played, the one and only dragon is moved onto that tile. Each time a Dragon tile is played, the Dragon (wherever it is on the board) will be moved (vertically or horizontally) to an adjacent tile 6 times.  The rules are not specific, but I think that the Dragon will then remain on the board on the last tile it was moved to! If another Volcano is played, the Dragon is move to that tile. If another Dragon tile is played the Dragon begins its 6 moves from wherever it was after the previous Dragon movement or wherever it is because of the last Volcano tile.

If my understanding of the rules is correct, I would recommend the addition of the following phrase to the WikiCarPedia page:

Change: After the dragon has finished moving, the game continues as normal.

To: After the dragon has finished moving, it remains where it is on the board until the next Volcano or Dragon tile is played, and the game continues as normal.


Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5546.0
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Online corinthiens13

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2021, 05:58:44 AM »
Your interpretation is correct  :yellow-meeple:
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Offline Willem

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2021, 06:01:41 AM »
I'd say it is implied, but not specifically stated in the rules, so it might be a good clarification in the Wikicarpedia :)

Offline PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2021, 07:08:51 AM »
Let me add one more, logical, question.

The Dragon eats Meeples and Builders, if the dragon eats the only Meeple that you have in a city and your Builder is also in that city, your Meeple is returned back to your supply.  I assume that also would mean that your Builder would also be returned to your supply!  Is your Builder returned to your supply? Or is it now stranded in a city you don’t control until that city is closed?

Both answers have merit!

Offline DrMeeple

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2021, 09:18:22 AM »
Let me add one more, logical, question.

The Dragon eats Meeples and Builders, if the dragon eats the only Meeple that you have in a city and your Builder is also in that city, your Meeple is returned back to your supply.  I assume that also would mean that your Builder would also be returned to your supply!  Is your Builder returned to your supply? Or is it now stranded in a city you don’t control until that city is closed?

Both answers have merit!
You say that wikicarpedia isn’t clear and after you ask questions that you will find in there… If you read the rules on wikicarpedia you will find everything…. Thit is your answers from wikicarpedia:

‘Exp. 2 - Traders and Builders:
If the dragon eats a player's last knight in a city where the player's builder is present, the builder is automatically returned to the player's supply. (The reason: builders are not meeples.)
If the dragon eats a player's last highwayman [20] on a road where the player's builder is present, the builder is automatically returned to the player's supply. (The reason: builders are not meeples.)
If the dragon eats a player's last farmer in a field where the player's pig is present, the pig is automatically returned to the player's supply. (The reason: pigs are not meeples.)’

About your question’s dragon:

I’m not sure if you read all the rules on wikicarpedia before asking (no problem with that) but I don’t understand why do you ask it.
If you read the movement of the dragon the dragon always remains on the table when it finish his movement. In which phase of the game the dragon can be retire of the table?? If you read all the rules you don’t find it, it’s not possible think to retire the dragon on any phase.

‘Important: The dragon is not added to the game until the first Volcano tile has been drawn and placed. If you draw a Dragon tile before such time, set it aside and draw a new tile. As soon as the first Volcano tile is placed and the dragon is added to the game, reshuffle the previously drawn Dragon tiles with the supply before continuing.’

‘Is not added to the game until first vocano tile’ the meaning of this sentence is: when the first volcano appears the dragon is added to the game and this means the dragon remains on the game until the end. Btw reading the phases of a turn o the phases of moving the dragon on WICA you won’t find anything that makes you think about retire the dragon. emoji code2955]


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Offline DrMeeple

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2021, 09:37:16 AM »
If another Volcano is played, the Dragon is move to that tile. If another Dragon tile is played the Dragon begins its 6 moves from wherever it was after the previous Dragon movement or wherever it is because of the last Volcano tile.

About this question. I don’t understand the doubt… if you placed a volcano tile the dragon moves to that. Means that the dragon is in another tile and place of the table. Means that the dragon change the position of the table. The past is the past and you won’t come back there on the table. After in another turn a dragon tile is placed then you move the dragon from that last point logically. You won’t find this possibility that you ask if you read the phase movement.

This is from wikicarpedia:

‘Starting with the active player and proceeding clockwise, players take turns moving the dragon one space at a time (vertically or horizontally) until the dragon has moved 6 spaces or is unable to move.

The dragon may not move to a tile that it has already visited this turn. It also may not move to the tile the fairy occupies (see below). Whenever the dragon moves to a tile occupied by one or more meeples (or other figures), it eats those meeples (or figures), which are returned to their respective players. After the dragon has finished moving, the game continues as normal. A list of figures the dragon does and does not eat can be found below.

Dead end: If the dragon is unable to move (it is only adjacent to tiles it has already visited), its movement ends prematurely.’


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Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2021, 10:28:50 AM »
Question is which language DrMeeple check for rules of Dragon.

There can be differences of translation and also some clarifications can be missing in other languages

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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2021, 01:10:03 PM »
Thank you for your comments!

I added the suggested change to WICA. Exp. 3 is the most visited major expansion in WICA due to the numerous versions of the rules especially in C2. Moreover, the wording in the printed rules is rather obscure when explaining the Volcano and the Dragon tiles.

As a first approach I split the rules for both tiles and reviewed the wording according to the German rules. Any additional suggestion is priceless.

Even if you pay attention to the printed rules, the movement of the dragon is Step 1b but if you read the rules you realize it should be Step 2b. I notified this to HiG on discord and hope the review these parts of the rules accordingly for C3.0  ;)

(Decar, stop laughing at me  :o)
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2021, 01:18:38 PM »
@DrMeeple There is no issue in asking about the rules as many times as necessary to grasp their meaning and their nuances. It is difficult to put everything in paper in a simple and straightforward manner when there are so many details like in this case. We had our share of surprises with HiG when the understanding of the written rules did not match the original intention by HiG.

Everyone has to remember we also went through that learning curve once. Until you don't play an expansion, you won't understand its rules completely... and also many questions will arise in the process.

So all questions are welcome... Newcomers have some great questions that may sometime shake the whole building...  ;D

Offline kothmann

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2021, 03:58:48 AM »
If you draw a Dragon tile before any Volcano tiles are drawn, put it on the side until the first Volcano tile is played.
River II includes a volcano on the spring tile, so the Dragon always enters the game before the first Dragon tile!

I haven’t played Dragon for several years—not my thing.  But my nephew loves it and he is visiting for Thanksgiving so we’ll definitely put it in the mix.  This was a helpful review of the rules for me.  The only thing missing is a review of how the Fairy works, but I think we usually just play something simple, ignoring the points for having the Fairy, since we often forget to add them.

I’m eager to hear what your group thinks of the Dragon…

Thanks.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2021, 04:16:55 AM »
Those of my friend who are more into cut-throat games love the dragon and the towers. Others prefer more amicable games and do not want to play those two expansions. So the audience influences what expansions to use... as usual.

Offline kothmann

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2021, 05:29:22 AM »
Yes, for sure.

The odd thing is that I really enjoy a cut-throat game.  I’m all about blocking, stealing, trapping.  For me, the problem with Dragon is that it feels capriciously random.  [mathgeek]If I play a game with dice where the goal is to roll the highest total score, regular Carcassonne feels like summing the rolls of three 6-sided dice.  But with the dragon, it feels like I’m rolling a single 20-sided die.  The average score is the same (10.5), but the variance is so much higher with the single die.[/mathgeek]

This may not really be totally fair to the Dragon.  It may just reflect bad early experiences, before I had enough intuition for how to play the game strategically.  So, I’m eager to give it another try…

Not sure why I don’t like official Tower rules.  Just seems goofy.  But I love the wooden towers, so I made a variant that is a lot of fun (similar to Balloons).  Actually, I discovered the CC Forum when searching for a Tower variant and found the excellent rules for The Foreman from @BigGuy.

Offline PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2021, 11:59:56 AM »
OK, you are correct that I did not read the rules close enough before asking my second question, SO, I have read them thoroughly for this third question!

The fairy is designed to protect your meeples from the dragon.  I cannot see in the rules anything that says that the fairy will also protect your knight from the princess.  Does the fairy protect a knight from the Princess?  If not, and the Princess removes your knight from the city, does the fairy stay on the city?  If so, your knight was removed in the Placing a Tile phase, if the city was also completed by the Princess tile, do you still score 3 point because the fairy was originally assigned to your meeple?


Online corinthiens13

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2021, 01:00:59 PM »
The fairy does not protect from the princess.

The fairy always remain on its tile until a player moves it, it is never returned to the supply, even if the meeple it is assigned to is removed. It keeps preventing the dragon from going on that tile.

The fairy 3 points is part of the bonus points when scoring a feature. If a meeple with fairy is removed by a princess (or by any other way), that is before scoring the feature so there's no fairy 3 points  :yellow-meeple:

I think those informations are in footnotes in WICA.

Offline PapaGeek

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Re: The Dragon
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2021, 06:10:31 AM »
One more time: I have to ask another question!  If an Abbot was removed from a garden or Monastery when it was surrounded by less than 8 tile, the garden or Monastery will be scored for less than 9 points, but the feature is not complete!  If the last surrounding tile has not been placed yet, can the Magic Portal send another Abbot the same incomplete garden or Monastery? Or a meeple back to the incomplete Monastery?


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