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Messages - Meepledrone

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1
Yep... but since your whole turn is a long round of scoring, how can you exclude its effect on your scoring figures?

2
News and Events / Re: Carcassonne maps: Taiwan
« on: Today at 03:51:35 AM »
@Allograft Info sent along with a summary of next steps. Let me know if you have any questions.

3
Online Games and Competitions / Re: Big Top in JCZ
« on: Today at 03:50:29 AM »
Poor stupid sentence! Who could have imagined what they meant by this?
Quote
The ringmaster counts as a normal meeple. He has the same uses as a normal meeple in all expansions.

4
Online Games and Competitions / Re: Big Top in JCZ
« on: Today at 01:41:55 AM »
You know I find this restriction lame and runs easily into conflict with basic features on double-sized tiles of Halflings (will HiG deny the bonus in these cases too?). Fortunately, these conflicts do not affect JCZ as of yet...

Having the two options would be great:
* Ringmaster bonus for basic-game features only (default)
* Ringmaster bonus for all features

Let's see if HiG reconsider their position after our complaints.

5
Great review!

+1 merit from me.

The HiG rep on Discord told me this about the 20th Anniversary Edition back in April 2021 when asking about interactions with the double-sized river source tile:
Quote
The anniversary edition is not a Substitute for the base game. So the same statement applies here: We won't give you official rules for combinations of expansions.

So it seems they included the 20th Anniversary expansion as if it was never supposed to be combined with any other expansions. Really?

This all sounds kind of too lazy to me.

But at least the rules explain how to score a monastery adjacent to the river source, something I asked them about when discussing double-sized tile with them back in January 2021...  :o

6
HiG was stressing that you consider those points scored after the tile is placed. But this means including points not related directly to the tile just placed, such as the abbot or an acrobat pyramid (making little sense to me). Before all this, we were assuming that sending a meeple to Carcassone only considered those points scored in steps 3B and 3C. Now things get tangled due to the scorings allegedly deferred from points triggered in 2. Placing a meeple

Like I said, IMHO too many unaswered questions and rather a tunnel vision in their responses so far. No global view of the global picture and the implications of their clarifications, so each answer connects to another topic that unleashes a spiralling number of related issues.

7
I have simplified the rules affecting Messages according to this clarification from 1/2021. This affected:
* Messages
* Order of Play
* Scoring During the Game
* Scoring After the Game

In C2 now there is only one round of Messages in Step 4A after the Catapult (so one Message in a normal turn or one Message per turn part in a double turn). C1 stays the same.

This said, I haven't moved the actions scored immediately in 2. Placing a meeple until now, since there is no clear answer from HiG. Let's see if they clarify their position soon.

8
And what if the last movement was backwards and ended up on a dark space (got 2 points for not activating a 20 anniversary tile, then lost 2 for protecting a meeple from peasant revolts)?
The robber do not gain negative points to players: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Robbers#cite_note-5.
Anyways, it would be (somewhat) weird to receive a message for losing point(s).

Yes, that is correct, but the issue does not affect robbers but messages. If your scoring meeple (or your messenger) moves backwards on the scoreboard and ends up on a dark space, should you receive a message?

9
Builder and messages; the second part of the turn has messages like the first part?

Yes, this was already clarified in the rules:

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Messages#Traders_.26_Builders

Quote
Getting a double turn with the builder: You can draw a message tile after each 3. Scoring a Feature action, so long as either your meeple or messenger is moving to and stopping on a dark space each time.

10
Also taking into account all scorings from 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2 and 2C?

Yes, Just the final position of the scoring figures is taken into consideration if any of them moved. This leaves an open question about scoring negative points (question sent to HiG about this too).

On another note, after a long conversation on Discord (about which I also sent questions to validate their answers), they said that:
* Scorings happening in 1A, 1B, 1C and (allegedly) 2A happen immediately.
* Scorings triggered in 2B-1 and 2C are delayed and are scored in 3 (not specified when for now: 3A for the sake of simplicity? 3B along with features scored?). This was important for the dragon (question not fully answered since January and sent again to HiG)
* Scorings happening in 3B, 3C and 4A scored in their respective steps.

This also has some side effects on points considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne (question sent to HiG about this too):
* Positive scorings happening in 1A, 1B and 4A (happening after sending a meeple to Carcassonne) should not be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Positive scorings happening in 1C, 3A?, 3B, 3C should be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Negative scorings should not be considered.

So as you can see, many moving parts I wanted to clarify. But let's work with what we have so far.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Fruit-Bearing_Trees#Harvestiː "immediately" and in 2. Placing a meeple.

No matter if the rules say immediately, HiG state no points are scored in 2. Placing a meeple. So the only option I see -and therefore my question to HiG- is that actions take place in this phase but points are scored in 3. Scoring a feature. No answer yet though after several months.

I quoted the rules to them stating the scoring happened immediatel,y and even the clarification about removing and scoring the abbot, that was crystal clear about removing and scoring the abbot in 2. Placing a meeple, but they didn't come to clear conclusion:

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot#cite_note-13

Quote
The scoring of the abbot scoring occurs immediately during the 2. Placing a meeple phase when the abbot is removed. This effectively protects the abbot from the dragon and produces a scoring round for Messages. Afterwards, the normal scoring phase occurs. (3/2015)

This means the HiG representative was contradicting the aforementioned clarifications but never answered my initial question completely. I was wanted them to confirm that when placing a dragon tile, you could remove and score the abbot before the dragon moves, so you could prevent the dragon from eating your abbot. No clear answer yet besides the scoring does not happen in 2. Placing a meeple.

What are the corect answers?
1. You score your shepherd:
a) You remove the shepherd and the sheep in step 2C, but score the points in step 3.
b) You remove the shepherd and the sheep in step 3 and score the points in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

2. You score your abbot:
a) You remove the abbot in step 2B-1, but score the points in step 3.
b) You remove the abbot in step 3 and score the points in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

3. You score a pyramid of acrobatsː
a) You remove the acrobats in step 2B-1, but the points are scored in step 3.
b) You remove the acrobats in step 3 and the points are scored in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

3. You harvestː
a) You place the token in your supply in step 2C, but score the points in step 3.
b) You place the token in your supply in step 3 and score the points in step 3.
a) You place the token in your supply in step 2C, but score the points in step 2C.
b) You place the token in your supply in step 3 and score the points in step 2C.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

11
That is a great clarification, making the game a lot easier.

Indeed. It's great and matched the initial approach on BB4 and BB6. What makes me think why they conveyed such a complicated approach in the clarifications from 5/2014 and 10/2014.

Now one question, what if I move my messenger for correct windrose placement, my messenger ends on a dark space, then I score a city with my scoring meeple and it doesn't end on a dark space.

Do I get a message since the last movement of my messenger was to a dark space, or not since the last overall movement wasn't to a dark space? (I suggest the second option to make it easier, the last movement has to be to a dark space).

You have to consider which scorings figures you moved during your turn, and check the last position of each of them on the scoreboard. In this case, you moved both and one of them ended up on a dark space, so you receive a message.

This means, you have to evaluate your whole turn as one round of scoring even if the scoring events happen in different steps.

And what if the last movement was backwards and ended up on a dark space (got 2 points for not activating a 20 anniversary tile, then lost 2 for protecting a meeple from peasant revolts)?

We don't have an official answer.

I also asked HiG if you receive a message when landing on dark spaces after scoring negative points. No answer yet.

12
Also taking into account all scorings from 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2 and 2C?

Yes, Just the final position of the scoring figures is taken into consideration if any of them moved. This leaves an open question about scoring negative points (question sent to HiG about this too).

On another note, after a long conversation on Discord (about which I also sent questions to validate their answers), they said that:
* Scorings happening in 1A, 1B, 1C and (allegedly) 2A happen immediately.
* Scorings triggered in 2B-1 and 2C are delayed and are scored in 3 (not specified when for now: 3A for the sake of simplicity? 3B along with features scored?). This was important for the dragon (question not fully answered since January and sent again to HiG)
* Scorings happening in 3B, 3C and 4A scored in their respective steps.

This also has some side effects on points considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne (question sent to HiG about this too):
* Positive scorings happening in 1A, 1B and 4A (happening after sending a meeple to Carcassonne) should not be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Positive scorings happening in 1C, 3A?, 3B, 3C should be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Negative scorings should not be considered.

So as you can see, many moving parts I wanted to clarify. But let's work with what we have so far.

13
Before bazaar?

Yes.

And I would do it after Catapult (I sent a question to HiG about this)

At least, now is easier to play with Messages.

Certainly!

14
[Q1] You only receive a message if your messenger or your scoring meeple end up on a dark space after scoring all your points, right? I mean, you don't take into consideration any intermediate scorings due to several completed features, but only your last move of your scoring figures.

[A1] Yes, you only take messages with your last movement on the scoreboard. But there is a edge case: if you get points from the messages that grant you another message, you will get those as well. This mentioned in the Big Box 6 rules.

This means that all the additional rounds of scoring explained in the clarifications by Georg Wild in 5/2014 and 10/2014 are now declared obsolete:

* Immediate scoring and round of scoring for Windroses and Fairy point (05/2014):
  https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=751.msg8193#msg8193

* Existing rounds of scoring (10/2014):
   https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1113.msg13390#msg13390

15
In January, we got the following clarification from Johannes (HiG) on the HiG Discord server. I was waiting for further clarifications about the same topic, but it's taking a long time as you all can see. So I finally decided to post the snippet of information we got.

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in  MAROON

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