German castles, Abbeys & Halflings - Clarifications by Cundco - 28 05 2024

[Meepledrone]

@Bumsakalaka contacted Cundco about German castles in May 2024 and later I revisited the matter and expanded the questions to Abbeys, Halflings and wonders in October 2024. We received the following clarifications...

Following Kettlefish's tradition...

Question in BLUE

Answer in GREEN

Still open in RED

My own comments in MAROON

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=6757.0

[Meepledrone]

[Q1.1] A new special case is mentioned in th English rules for new reprint of German Castles in C3, but this case is not included in German rules: "Special case: The game ends, when nobody can place a land tile or a castle tile during their turn, even if other players still have some." Why is that?

[A1.1] It is a mistake that the special case is not included in the German rules.


[Q1.2] Is this text a correct translation of the original idea?

[A1.2] Regarding the gameplay, the special case rule means that as soon as one player cannot draw a normal tile or does not have a German castle tile when it's their turn, the game ends - even if another player after this player still has their castle tile and would theoretically be able to place it.

This means that the game ends once all the normal tiles are drawn and a player cannot place a German castle tile in their supply, no matter if there are other players with German castles left. Therefore, the game may last some additional turns after the last normal tile is placed, as reconfirmed in the next question.

[Meepledrone]

[Q2.1] If so, is it correct to understand that the game does not end the same turn the last normal tile is placed, so some additional turns can be played while all the next players have at least one German castle to place? Thus, the game would end when the next player has no German castles left to play.

[A2.1] Yes, if someone cannot place a tile, the game ends.


[Q2.2] For example, let's assume the following:
Player 1: has a German castle
Player 2: has a German castle
Player 3: has a German castle
Player 4: has no German castle

If Player 1 draws and places the last normal tile. Then Player 2 and Player 3 can play their German castles. Finally, the game will end here, since Player 4 has no German castle tile to play, even if Player 1 has one German castle tile (as per the rules). Is this correct?

[A2.1] In your example, Player 1 cannot place their German castle tile. The game ends when Player 4 cannot place a tile.

[Meepledrone]

[Q3] Would this special case also apply to Abbey tiles from Exp. 5 - Abbey & Mayor?

[A3] Yes

A game with Abbey tiles will end as soon as a player cannot place a normal tile or their Abbey. So, after the last normal tile is placed, the game goes on as soon as subsequent players can place their Abbey tiles. This would relate to a rule added in C1 (Big Box 2), that was later removed in C2. That addition comes back in a softened way (and has some implications for other expansions as seen below). The wording in C1 was as follows:

If one or more players have not placed their Abbey when the last landscape tile is drawn and placed, they may still do so, in clockwise order starting from the left of the person who placed the last tile, as long as it is in accordance with the rules. The game is then over.

[Meepledrone]

[Q4] Would this special case also apply to triangular tiles from Halflings?

[A4] Yes

A game with Halfing tiles will end as soon as a player cannot place a normal tile or a Halfling tile. So, after the last normal tile is placed, the game goes on as soon as subsequent players can place their Halfling tiles. There was no indication of this possibility in C1 or C2.

[Meepledrone]

[Q5] Would this special case also apply to any wonder tiles?

[A5] Yes, although it's really hard to imagine that this would ever happen.

A game with wonder tiles will end as soon as a player cannot place a normal tile or a wonder tile pending to be placed from their previous turn. So, after the last normal tile is placed, the game goes on as soon as subsequent players can place the pending wonder tile in their supply. There was no indication of this possibility in the rules.

[jamontoast]

very interesting clarifications, and not how I’ve been playing Abbeys at all! I’ve been working under the assumption that, once the normal tiles are exhausted, you cannot play your abbey at all. Will certainly be updating how I play with my family!

[Meepledrone]

You were playing okay... This is what HiG told us to do in 2021, but now they have changed their minds again...

[Bumsakalaka]

I think it can includes extra situation:
Game ends also when active player can not place any normal tile from the deck and any tile from his supply

Odoslané z SM-A346B pomocou Tapatalku

[Meepledrone]

A glimpse of this was considered for double turns with Abbeys, but it was never presented as a general case until now.

https://wikicarpedia.com/car/Abbey_and_the_Mayor#Abbey_2

[QuintessentialQ]

Does this mean that players are forced to play their abbeys at the end of the game if there is an available space to play it? This could result in players being forced to finish a previously blocked city which could cause large point swings at the end of the game.

[Bumsakalaka]

Does this mean that players are forced to play their abbeys at the end of the game if there is an available space to play it? This could result in players being forced to finish a previously blocked city which could cause large point swings at the end of the game.

Interesting question!

Odoslané z SM-A346B pomocou Tapatalku

[davide]

hello everybody,I think that with this rules,a player is not mandatory to be forced to play ,halfing,german castle or abbey,,so the turn finish when the player don't put one of them and all the tiles end..

[Meepledrone]

You are allowed to play additional tiles from your supply for several turns until a player may not place a tile from their supply... The issue is if you can skip the placement and finish the game by doing so... at least for Abbey tiles.

I sent a question to HiG. Let's see if the placement is mandatory in the case of Abbeys.

If you are also playing with Halflings, you could use on of them, if lucky, to block the hole for the Abbey, but this may not always be the case.

[Bumsakalaka]

Well in some situation it will be fine, if player will not be forced to play tile from the supply at the end of the game.
But, this is rules changer, so you have to count with it and use all tiles from the supply before last regular tile is placed.