Author Topic: Traders and Builders  (Read 26658 times)

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 01:12:03 PM »
We German say "Doppelzug" - why is the translation "double turn" not correct?

That is likely a correct translation...the problem is what actually occurs is not a true double turn...rather, an extended turn.
I just drew the perfect tile for my MonKnighThieFarmer!

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2013, 01:28:27 PM »
We German say "Doppelzug" - why is the translation "double turn" not correct?

That is likely a correct translation...the problem is what actually occurs is not a true double turn...rather, an extended turn.
An extended turn is one - when you can draw and place more than one tile but not more than one "move wood" (only at one tile).
Please be careful with new names. One day HiG decided to use the name extended turn for a new expansion.... It is all possible at HiG...  ;D

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2013, 06:39:15 AM »
An extended turn is one - when you can draw and place more than one tile but not more than one "move wood" (only at one tile).

Has someone at HiG already determined this? When does this case exist?

The word "extended" is a generic word which could indicate any game play occurring in a turn beyond the normal components of a regular turn. It could be triggered by a builder or by a mechanic not yet announced. It would be difficult in my opinion for HiG to use the term "extended" to define a specific turn function or mechanic.

I agree with your point though that it would be prudent for even the use of the word "extended" to be a little more defined so that it could be differentiated from future extended turn mechanics. I suggest it can be called an "extended builder turn" if we are looking for a logical compliment to the term "double turn". Then for future it could be an "extended (insert mechanic name here) turn".

« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 06:54:21 AM by Carcking »

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2013, 07:14:36 AM »
The double turn:

you have two complete turns:
1. to draw and place a landscape tile
2. to "move wood"
3. to score
-------------------------------

We have not yet an expansion from HiG with an "extended turn" (a streched turn).
I think an extended turn is for example with more tiles than only one tile to draw and place (part 1 of the turn) but only "one move wood".
This case we don't have - so I think it could be possible one day.

for the part 2 "move wood" during the turn  - more than one figure - we have the phantom

But for example the festival - you can displace an own figure from the playing area - even the barn. Before we have this expansion, it was a no go, that a figure - especially the barn - could be displaced like this (the only displacement was: the tower or the dragon - but not for the barn).

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2013, 07:32:32 AM »
The double turn:

you have two complete turns:
1. to draw and place a landscape tile
2. to "move wood"
3. to score

This is the issue we are dealing with though - the use of the word double implies to the novice that you get two complete double turns - with the builder however you do not get two complete double turns. There are certain mechanics that do not duplicate - they are only performed once during the whole turn. So the double turn is not two complete turns...it's a turn and some additional actions - an extended builder turn.

In the CAR we are trying to consolidate and simplify the rules to make a good reference tool. As it is now we are having to call it a double turn - but then add several qualifiers (footnotes) to explain that it's not actually a double turn, but rather (by definition) an extended turn.

I think the goal to keep in mind is what we want the CAR to achieve.  :)

Offline Scott

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2013, 08:44:27 AM »
The phrase "double turn" worked better when the builder rules were originally written. As more expansions have been created, typically from the standpoint of not mixing them all together, the definition of "double turn" is increasingly strained.

If a lot of people are against "extended turn", I'll be fine with that. We need to determine what is the trade-off between accuracy and clarity?

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2013, 03:02:46 PM »
We need to determine what is the trade-off between accuracy and clarity?

Agreed.  :red-meeple:

Offline obervet

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2013, 01:58:07 PM »
I've pondered a bit, and I'm not convinced that I have a better alternative to the phrase "double-turn" that would be worth changing the lingo away from the HiG translation. What I plan to do at this point is make a big bold footnote that tries to emphasize that the "double-turn" is really a single turn with some repeated parts. I will then list the parts that are NOT repeated. Based on my reading of the rules and previous clarifications, the following things only occur once per turn:

Fairy bonus point (has clarification)
Prisoner buyback from the Tower (has clarification)
Tunnel token placement (not convinced about this one)
Flight from plague (as far as I can tell)
Plague spread (as far as I can tell)

Did I leave anything out? Did I include something that shouldn't be included?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 02:00:40 PM by obervet03 »

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2013, 02:18:51 PM »
Did I leave anything out? Did I include something that shouldn't be included?

Honestly, I think either way, you're going to have to keep a running list as the game grows with expansions...

Offline kettlefish

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 02:24:26 PM »
Did I leave anything out? Did I include something that shouldn't be included?

Honestly, I think either way, you're going to have to keep a running list as the game grows with expansions...
obervet03,
perhaps we need a special page for the "double-turn" - may be in a tabular form:
included in double-turn - not included in double-turn


Offline obervet

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 02:48:13 PM »
I agree, Carcking, a running list will be necessary. I like kettlefish's idea of a table. I might put that at the end of the Traders & Builders section so people don't have to flip all the way back to the Turn Order section to see if something is included.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 04:49:45 PM »
A table is a good idea. Thumbs up!

Offline obervet

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 02:33:53 PM »
I have added a table to the upcoming version of the CAR -- the headings of the columns are "Things that happen only ONCE" and "Things that may or must happen TWICE."

I have included the 5 actions from a few posts above in the "ONCE" column. For the actions from the Spielbox expansions, I don't have definitive clarifications about their inclusion; I'm just going off the rules as best I can. For the Plague actions, inclusion in the ONCE category seems pretty logical. I also feel like the Tunnel one is the same way, since placement of a Tunnel token can occur at any time during the turn (it's not connected to the tile placement or anything). If I learn anything new, I will update the table accordingly.

Offline Carcking

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2013, 04:34:01 PM »
In the Speilbox rules for the Plague it says the player places a flea token anytime during the player's turn.

Offline obervet

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Re: Traders and Builders
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2013, 06:13:26 AM »
In the Speilbox rules for the Plague it says the player places a flea token anytime during the player's turn.

The plague tokens and tunnel tokens seem to mirror each other as far as placement goes (other than one being mandatory), as both occur once a turn, at any time, unrelated to the Move Wood phase. So it seems logical that neither one would be duplicated in the "double turn."


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