A suggestion for Bazaars and Builders

[PapaGeek]

Our group is planning to start playing the Bazaar expansion next week and there is a chance our second game of the night could be Bazaar and Builder, so, I started reading CAR to see what the rules are. The rules for the Bazaar only auction are straight forward, but mixing Bazaars and Builders is very complex.

The CAR footnote 28 on the No chain reaction paragraph says that the purchased bazaar tiles will not trigger an auction, but any drawn bazaar tile will trigger an auction.  Nonetheless, as discussed in the Q&A clarification in the Other expansions section, the auction may not happen immediately if the drawing of the tile occurred during a builder-turn during a bazaar round.” And footnote 33 in the Q&A Bazaar/Traders and Builders section talks about the 5/2013, 8/2016 and 12/2018 modifications to the rules that ended up talking about Start pending bazaars and Start delaying any new bazaars (“bazaars” with an s, plural), and there are no rules on how you play multiple bazaars at the same time or how you are supposed to manage extra bazaars being added to the list in the middle of playing the first set of multiple bazaars.

If you are playing with the original 72 tiles, without the Trader tiles, plus the Builder meeples, plus the 12 Bazaar tiles; you have a total of 84 tiles where 8 of them could trigger a bazaar.  Your chance of drawing a bazaar is about 9.5%.  Add in the 24 Trader tiles and your chance only drops to 7.5% for each tile you draw.  The chance that one person might draw a builder-second-turn bazaar tile in a 6 person game it reasonable, and the chance that two players might draw a bazaar tile is slim, but definitely not impossible.

For that reason I would like to make the following suggestion that would eliminate the possibility of having multiple pending bazaars.  Change footnote 28: FROM “Note that a purchased bazaar tile will not trigger an auction, but any drawn bazaar tile will trigger an auction.” TO “Note that a purchased bazaar tile will not trigger an auction, but any drawn bazaar tile will trigger a pending auction only if a pending auction does not already exist.”

Thank you for reading this and your comments pro and con are welcome.


Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5451.0

[Bumsakalaka]

Better check WikiCarpedia.com which is based on CAR and it's next version of CAR. There are also new clarifications and interactions with other new expansions.

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

[PapaGeek]

Better check WikiCarpedia.com which is based on CAR and it's next version of CAR. There are also new clarifications and interactions with other new expansions.

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

Thank you for your reply;
I have looked at CAR and it includes two versions for the order in which the Bazaar takes place.

Footnote 28 takes you to the Q&A clarification in the Other expansions section where the Q&A for Bazaars with Traders and Builders does not perform the initial builder second turn until AFTER the auction and all additional auctions have been completed. BUT …

Footnote 33 describes the implementation by JCloisterZone as of 12/2018 where the builder second turn was taken BEFORE you turn over the bazaar tiles and perform the auction.

I definitely prefer the 12/2018 version where you do not have to wait for your builder second turn, BUT, what bothers me in both versions are the references to Pending Bazaars (plural). If you perform the initial bazaar auction for 6 players who all bid on the tiles that will give them builder second turns and two of those second turn tiles are bazaar tiles, when you do “Start pending bazaars”, do you just perform the first one before you perform the second one, or do you do them both at the same time and auction off 12 tiles?

Hence my initial question, can we clarify the rules to make sure there are never multiple pending bazaars.

This is not an issue when builders are not included because the rules clearly state that purchased bazaar tiles will not trigger an auction. 

[Bumsakalaka]

I definitely prefer the 12/2018 version ...

After some shocks on Hans in Glueck (publisher of Carcassonne) Discrod channel for rules, this created big smile on my face.


We all preffer some rules, but HiG wanted sometimes something different.


So then our choise of our meaning of rules we call house rules

[PapaGeek]

So, what are your personal opinions on the two issues I am discussing?

In my personal opinion (as a newbie), the builder is part of the Traders and Builders expansion.  You are working hard to create a city with a number of traders.  You will get the points when the city is closed, but whoever actually closes the city will get the trader tokens.  SO, the expansion also include a builder meeple that you can place on that city to more or less double your chances of being the person who closes it.

The Bazaar gives you a chance to not only bid on a tile that will help you close your city, but it also gives you the opportunity to create a builder second turn so you can double your chances.

So back to my issues, what is your opinion on forcing the player who create the auction to wait until after the entire auction(s) to take their builder second turn, AND, do you think we should find a way to make sure that multiple pending auctions cannot stack up?

Just to add one more note: talking like this is exactly why the four of us in our game night group have become total hooked on Carcassonne!

Other than alcohol, can you think of anything else to help with this obsession?

[Meepledrone]

So, what are your personal opinions on the two issues I am discussing?

In my personal opinion (as a newbie), the builder is part of the Traders and Builders expansion.  You are working hard to create a city with a number of traders.  You will get the points when the city is closed, but whoever actually closes the city will get the trader tokens.  SO, the expansion also include a builder meeple that you can place on that city to more or less double your chances of being the person who closes it.

My personal view is that the builder is an aid included in T&B to help you complete massive cities generarated with all the tiles included in the expansion. Trade goods being awarded to the player completing a city is one of the mechanics in Carcassonne to as a trade-off between personal profit and helping other players. Exp. 6 includes other samples of similar trade-offs with the City of Carcassonne and the King & Robber Baron tiles.

Builders and bazaars are a conflicting combinations for the reasons you mentioned. The German rules in the classic and new edition instruct players to perform the bazaar before triggering a double turn before playing the second part of your turn.

With normal turns, there is no issue but with a double turn, the bazaar round is nested in the double turn of the active player. This can become a little mess if you add Messages to the equation, for example.

The CAR includes a a different version of the sequence. This discrepancy (originated from the mistranslation of a clarification from 5/2013) was considered a valid alternative by HiG as it doesn't change the game much. The rationale behind the original rule is that the bazaar is an action derived from the tile placed in the first part of the double turn, so it should be resolved before the builder-turn is carried out. (08/2016)

I'm still revisiting this interactions with HiG, trying to close some odd ends about double turns happening during the bazaar round. So far we know that any bazaar tile purchased or drawn in a double turn during the bazaar round will be ignored altogether, that is, no delayed bazaars as indicated in the CAR. This grants me some peace of mind.

I have to update WICA to incorporate this rules simplification for the new edition. Bus I was waiting for the final confirmation that is taking me ages to get... 

The Bazaar gives you a chance to not only bid on a tile that will help you close your city, but it also gives you the opportunity to create a builder second turn so you can double your chances.

Some people don't like the auctioning mechanic since it stalls the game for a while. People prefer to pick tiles at random and move on with the game as quickly as possible. If you play the full action, just let me know.

I expanded a bit the detail on the rules, since the wording about who is the next player performing an auction is rather ambiguous. I managed to validate this point with HiG however.

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Bazaar

So back to my issues, what is your opinion on forcing the player who create the auction to wait until after the entire auction(s) to take their builder second turn, AND, do you think we should find a way to make sure that multiple pending auctions cannot stack up?

For me it can become a bit messy, but HiG has confirmed twice this sequence in their rules, despite the error in the CAR. However, you can house rule tht bazaars happen at the end of a double turn. This means that during a double turn two bazaar tiles are placed, one of them is ignored... And your life will also be easier.

Just to add one more note: talking like this is exactly why the four of us in our game night group have become total hooked on Carcassonne!

Other than alcohol, can you think of anything else to help with this obsession?

Getting more expansions and enjoying longer games or more varied games with friends? 

[kothmann]

In my personal opinion (as a newbie), the builder is part of the Traders and Builders expansion.  You are working hard to create a city with a number of traders.  You will get the points when the city is closed, but whoever actually closes the city will get the trader tokens.  SO, the expansion also include a builder meeple that you can place on that city to more or less double your chances of being the person who closes it.

Yes!  For a "newbie" I think you have identified a very interesting and subtle tactical element of builders that I don't think is discussed very often.  ALL of the city segments in T&B with trade tokens have at least 2 open city edges (only 2 have 3 edges), so you can almost always place the tile, put a follower in the city, and then later extend the city with a builder before closing one of the open edges.  As you note, this gives you 2X chance of closing the city!

I never use what I think is the bizarre bazaar, so I can't advise on which option would be better.

But I have invented and modified the rules a lot, and my main advice is to experiment.  It often occurs that a rule that you think might work is terrible in practice, or a problem that you anticipate is sufficiently rare that you don't need to worry about it too much.  So, pick something and see how it goes.

And then report ALL of the results back here when you are done, so we all get the benefit of your "hard work"!

In any case, this is a great thread for a new member!  Looking forward to many more.  +1 merit from me.

[PapaGeek]

OK, this post is not confusing enough yet, so let me make it worse!

So far we have discussed the 08/2016 order of play for a bazaar with builders and the 12/2018 variant by J Cloister Zone.

Other than when the builder-turn for the player who started the first bazaar takes place, the last 3 actions taken after the last player’s turn in the current bazaar are:

(Stop delaying any new bazaars)
Player who drew and placed a new bazaar in his/her builder turn (pending delayed bazaar)
**Back to // Start pending bazaars // until no pending delayed bazaars **

SO, let’s assume a six player game and player 2 started the first bazaar.  The first bazaar tiles have been played by players 3 4 5 6 1 2.  If there were no new bazaars generated, the bazaar is finished and player 3 should take the next non-bazaar turn.

BUT, what if during the initial bazaar, player 5 drew a builder second turn bazaar tile?  After the initial bazaar, when the pending bazaar is played, is the order going to be 6 1 2 3 4 5, and if so, does the game then continue with player 6 or player 3? If it does continue with player 6, is it fair that players 3 4 5 have basically lost a turn?

OR, should the rule be that any bazaar generated within another bazaar will be played in the same order as the original bazaar? In this example each pending bazaar would also be played 3 4 5 6 1 2 and the game would then continue with player 3 after all of the pending bazaars have been played.

[Meepledrone]

This issue is part of an ongoing discussion with HiG. They replied with a short paragraph solving this issue, but added another open question about the double turns taking place in a bazaar round.

I can tell you the partial clarification I got states that "If there is another bazaar tile in a double turn, the bazaar will be ignored for the double turns as well."

This means that delaying bazaars is not happening anymore, what makes total sense. Bazaars and double turns had become very messy.

I was planning to update WICA as soon as I get the missign piece of information, but it's taking ages for them to reply (since February 2021). I contacted them about the same issue in April 2021 and today... Let's see if we get lucky this time.

In any case, here you are the updated (and simplified rules) for the new edition:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Bridges,_Castles_and_Bazaars#Bazaar_2

[PapaGeek]

Meepledrone, thank you for sticking with me on this!

OK that “order of events” does seem logical and fair, including the fact that drawing the playable bazaar tile is what initiates the bazaar which should therefore happen first.  Then, when the first part of your double turn, including the bazaar is finished, you get to play your builder second turn tile, which as the other footnote indicate, can be a drawn tile, a Halfling, your abbey tile, or any other legal tile.

The new order does mention for each auctioned tile and builder tile (if a bazaar tile, no bazaar is triggered), but at the end, after the auction, you can “Perform your builder-turn (second part of your double turn).  Should we assume that your builder turn tile CAN start a second bazaar?

[Meepledrone]

Yes, the final builder-turn could trigger another bazaar, since no bazaar round is taking place... Lovely, isn't it?

No problem! I've been trying to clarify the bazaar rounds for some time now... So for me it is a relieve.

I also updated the dynamic Order of Play. Just in case you want to toy with it:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Order_of_Play