Author Topic: Acrobats animals and phantoms  (Read 5374 times)

Offline aenima

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Acrobats animals and phantoms
« on: September 03, 2017, 11:32:14 PM »
To take the acrobats back is a movement of wood? Can I do it and then deploy the phantom?

When exactly can I use the phantom if I have to reveal an animal?

Can I use the Phantom like Acrobat?

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3537.0
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 11:45:36 PM by aenima »

Offline Willem

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 02:26:29 AM »
Hi!
The Phantom can be used to deploy a second meeple on a different feature on the tile you've just laid. If you choose to not place a meeple so you can score acrobats, you cant place the Phantom.
If you want to use the Phantom as an acrobat, thats no problem. A Phantom can be used as any other meeple. But i think you can only use it as an acrobat if you place it when you lay the circus tile... (unsure if you could do it later, i would say no....)
If you place a circus tile, you can place a (normal) meeple on it, and the Phantom if you want. After placing the meeple(s), you move the circus and reveal the animal underneath it. So you cant place a phantom and get points for the circus with that phantom in the same turn.
Hope this helps!
To be or not to:
A.  B
B.  C
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Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 06:43:59 AM »
To take the acrobats back is a movement of wood? Can I do it and then deploy the phantom?
...
Can I use the Phantom like Acrobat?

Yes and yes, based on my understanding of the CAR 7.4.

If you choose to not place a meeple so you can score acrobats, you cant place the Phantom.
...
But i think you can only use [the phantom] as an acrobat if you place it when you lay the circus tile... (unsure if you could do it later, i would say no....)

If you place a circus tile, you can place a (normal) meeple on it, and the Phantom if you want. After placing the meeple(s), you move the circus and reveal the animal underneath it. So you cant place a phantom and get points for the circus with that phantom in the same turn.

I believe the CAR would disagree with you on those first two points. I must be misunderstanding your third point, because it seems to contradict itself?

Here are the CAR footnotes and page references upon which I base my comments (I've added the highlighting):

442 A Phantom can also be played to areas such as the Wheel of Fortune or a tower – the Phantom is not restricted to placement on the tile that was just placed.

443 Question: Does the phantom have to be second to a true follower, or can it be placed in addition to a non-follower piece? Answer: The phantom may also be placed as a second piece in addition to the builder, pig, or any other “move the wood” piece such as movement of the fairy or placement of a tower piece.

447 Question: When a tile with a magic portal is played, can the first follower can go to the tile itself and the phantom go through the magic portal (or vice versa)? In other words, can figures be deployed to 2 separate features (one to a portal and one to a primary feature) and end up on different tiles? Answer: Yes. You have a second separate placement phase, independent from the first placement phase, immediately after the first placement phase. You can do whatever you can do with a follower. You can choose a different target/action, of course. For example: Action one: place a follower at an open tower to close it. Action two: place [the phantom] into an area which is safe now because the tower is closed.

Also on page 173: "As with a normal follower, the phantom can also be deployed as the only follower on a turn, and the phantom follower always counts as a normal follower."

This all seems pretty clear to me that any legal follower placement is fine for the phantom. Now, there is one specific exception about phantoms and princesses, but other than that, I see no reason why the phantom can't legally deploy like any other follower in any valid combination. If you draw a circus and deploy it adjacent to an acrobat space, then deploy your phantom to that acrobat space, and the pyramid is also adjacent to the big top's current tile (the pending circus that's about to be resolved), then that phantom would seem to score for the circus animal just like any other follower.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 06:57:09 AM by Just a Bill »
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Offline aenima

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 07:16:10 AM »
it means also that in one turn I can deploy 2 followers like acrobat, the regoular one and the phantom

Offline Willem

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 07:41:19 AM »
Yes, but only when you place the tile.
So you can place an acrobat on the acrobat tile if you place one of the 8 surrounding tiles. Then you cannot also place the phantom, that is only when you place the acrobat tile

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 07:52:01 AM »
Yes, but only when you place the tile.
So you can place an acrobat on the acrobat tile if you place one of the 8 surrounding tiles. Then you cannot also place the phantom, that is only when you place the acrobat tile

Please cite your source for this. I didn't find any such restriction in the CAR or the UtBT rules.

Offline aenima

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 08:12:13 AM »
normally I agree with just a bill...
BUT...
it's true that a phantom can't use the flyer machine or the magic portal IF they was just used from another follower...
so it has sense to think about the acrobats space in this way...

mmmmmhhhhh   ::)

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 08:37:58 AM »
a phantom can't use the flyer machine or the magic portal IF they was just used from another follower...

That is specifically because the flying machine and magic portal are both one-time-use features. Once a follower uses one of them, it is "claimed" and cannot be used again. The CAR gives the specific rationale (on page 47) that "no follower (including the Phantom) can be placed on a claimed feature." This is the core rule that results in the two specific clarifications about those features.

However, acrobat pyramids are not "claimed" by a single follower (if they were, then a second and third acrobat would be forbidden). Acrobat spaces are specifically designed to have multiple occupants. I'm not sure the concept of "claimed" even applies here, but if it does then it would apply only when the pyramid is currently full with three followers (and even this is temporary — see below).

So the flyer/portal clarifications should not be assumed to apply to the phantom, because the two situations are very different. In fact, acrobat spaces are so different that they are specifically designed to be re-usable later in the game, even if they were already completed before (the UtBT rules say "After a pyramid has been scored, players can start a new pyramid on the same tile by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it"). This is pretty much the polar opposite of the magic portal and flying machine, which are both once per game.

So, putting together what the CAR and our common sense tell us:
  • Generally, no follower can be placed on a claimed feature.
  • However, an acrobat space that still has room is not "claimed."
  • Acrobat spaces are designed to accommodate multiple followers, and to be used multiple times per game.
  • Phantoms work exactly like normal followers; they just have the ability to give you a second move-wood action.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 08:41:59 AM by Just a Bill »

Offline aenima

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 08:43:14 AM »
acrobat pyramids are not "claimed" by a single follower (if they were, then a second and third acrobat would be forbidden). Acrobat spaces are specifically designed to have multiple occupants.

acrobat spaces are so different that they are specifically designed to be re-usable later in the game, even if they were already completed before (the UtBT rules say "After a pyramid has been scored, players can start a new pyramid on the same tile by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it").

ok, you convinced me  :(y)

So I can place a tile near an acrobat tile, deploy a normal follower on an acrobat space and then deploy the phantom on another acrobat space of the same tile...

Offline Willem

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 10:30:55 AM »
I was just looking it up in the CAR. I have always worked with the rule that the phantom can only be placed on a second feature on the same tile. So we've put in the (house)rule that you cant use it after you've done anything you do instead of moving the wood (removing with the festival, placing in the WoF, scoring acrobats, etc).
Ive just looked up the rules from HiG, and they basicly say you can place the phantom as second follower on the just placed tile. (so as ive always played it).
In the CAR it says clearly that you can use it after above listed possiblilties and other move the wood (fairy movement, tower placement etc). But it doesnt give a source for this, and i would say the official rules that come with the expansions is leading (at least for me).
So going with that it can only be placed as second follower on the just placed tile, id say you can use it as acrobat if you've just placed the acrobat tile, but not if you placed on of the surrounding 8
 ;D

Offline aenima

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 11:04:26 AM »
it can only be placed as second follower on the just placed tile, id say you can use it as acrobat if you've just placed the acrobat tile, but not if you placed on of the surrounding 8

but the acrobats tile has the special rule to "move" on them the followers that normally MUST be deploy on the tile just placed from the surrounding 8...
so, why can a normal follower be deploy on the near tile with the acrobat space and the phantom does not?

Offline Just a Bill

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 11:05:45 AM »
Ive just looked up the rules from HiG, and they basicly say you can place the phantom as second follower on the just placed tile.

Yes, but that is only describing the basic case. (Keep in mind that the phantom rules had to fit on two tiny 45x45-mm pages, and this phrase was needed so that players wouldn't wonder if they could deploy the phantom anywhere they wanted.) All followers can be deployed to the just-placed tile under normal circumstances, or to other tiles based on which expansion mechanics are in play (towers, acrobat spaces, the City of Carcassonne, etc.).

Normal, standard-case rules do not override special-case rules for expansion features. If they did, lots of things would fail to work as designed. For example, an assumed rule that limits phantoms to the just-placed tile would mean that phantoms can never stand on top of towers.

When you say later in your post that phantoms can only be placed on the just-placed tile, you are adding a restriction that does not appear in the phantom rules, and is not consistent with a general view of all the rules taken as a whole.

Don't get me wrong, it's a perfectly fine house rule. But I am very protective of the distinction between house rules and official rules.

If you are aware of an official statement that would show I am wrong, I would be very happy to hear it. I welcome correction (when I'm wrong about something, I never want to stay wrong).

Offline Willem

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2017, 11:19:07 AM »
Well, as i like the discussion and i wouldnt mind being wrong, but i would stay with my point of the rules as HiG distributed them. It says that 'in seinem Zug darf ein Spieler dieses Phantom als 2. Gefolgsmann auf die gelegte Karte stellen'.
'In their turn, a player can play this Phantom as second follower on the placed tile'. So I agree it can be used after the builder or pig or any follower, as long as it is on the placed tile. And have HiG ever stated that this sentence can be widely interpretated? Ive only seen this as an official statement regarding the rules, so have only got this to go by.
I don't mind saying it would be a house rule, but am interested in the different opinions here!
It might be a typical case of 'these expansions are meant to be placed with the basegame only and combinations with other expansions are at own risk', but the funny thing is that on the website of HiG on the phantom page it states that it's an expansion with few rules so easy to combine  ;D

Offline aenima

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2017, 01:48:17 PM »
The problem here is that you are right Willem, but it's also true that under the Big top comes after the phantom and that the rules of what comes after can contradict what comes before...

Offline Decar

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Re: Acrobats animals and phantoms
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2017, 09:49:45 AM »
This question needs to go on the forum post that kettlefish monitors, hopefully she will get clarity from HiG at Essen.

Both these expansions have 2 explicit rules.  It's unclear which rule takes precedence.  As such both options are valid.  I suspect the rules for 'Circus' didn't consider the Phantom expansion.


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