Carcassonne Central
Carc Central Community => Official Rules => Topic started by: aenima on September 03, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
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To take the acrobats back is a movement of wood? Can I do it and then deploy the phantom?
When exactly can I use the phantom if I have to reveal an animal?
Can I use the Phantom like Acrobat?
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Hi!
The Phantom can be used to deploy a second meeple on a different feature on the tile you've just laid. If you choose to not place a meeple so you can score acrobats, you cant place the Phantom.
If you want to use the Phantom as an acrobat, thats no problem. A Phantom can be used as any other meeple. But i think you can only use it as an acrobat if you place it when you lay the circus tile... (unsure if you could do it later, i would say no....)
If you place a circus tile, you can place a (normal) meeple on it, and the Phantom if you want. After placing the meeple(s), you move the circus and reveal the animal underneath it. So you cant place a phantom and get points for the circus with that phantom in the same turn.
Hope this helps!
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To take the acrobats back is a movement of wood? Can I do it and then deploy the phantom?
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Can I use the Phantom like Acrobat?
Yes and yes, based on my understanding of the CAR 7.4.
If you choose to not place a meeple so you can score acrobats, you cant place the Phantom.
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But i think you can only use [the phantom] as an acrobat if you place it when you lay the circus tile... (unsure if you could do it later, i would say no....)
If you place a circus tile, you can place a (normal) meeple on it, and the Phantom if you want. After placing the meeple(s), you move the circus and reveal the animal underneath it. So you cant place a phantom and get points for the circus with that phantom in the same turn.
I believe the CAR would disagree with you on those first two points. I must be misunderstanding your third point, because it seems to contradict itself?
Here are the CAR footnotes and page references upon which I base my comments (I've added the highlighting):
442 A Phantom can also be played to areas such as the Wheel of Fortune or a tower – the Phantom is not restricted to placement on the tile that was just placed.
443 Question: Does the phantom have to be second to a true follower, or can it be placed in addition to a non-follower piece? Answer: The phantom may also be placed as a second piece in addition to the builder, pig, or any other “move the wood” piece such as movement of the fairy or placement of a tower piece.
447 Question: When a tile with a magic portal is played, can the first follower can go to the tile itself and the phantom go through the magic portal (or vice versa)? In other words, can figures be deployed to 2 separate features (one to a portal and one to a primary feature) and end up on different tiles? Answer: Yes. You have a second separate placement phase, independent from the first placement phase, immediately after the first placement phase. You can do whatever you can do with a follower. You can choose a different target/action, of course. For example: Action one: place a follower at an open tower to close it. Action two: place [the phantom] into an area which is safe now because the tower is closed.
Also on page 173: "As with a normal follower, the phantom can also be deployed as the only follower on a turn, and the phantom follower always counts as a normal follower."
This all seems pretty clear to me that any legal follower placement is fine for the phantom. Now, there is one specific exception about phantoms and princesses, but other than that, I see no reason why the phantom can't legally deploy like any other follower in any valid combination. If you draw a circus and deploy it adjacent to an acrobat space, then deploy your phantom to that acrobat space, and the pyramid is also adjacent to the big top's current tile (the pending circus that's about to be resolved), then that phantom would seem to score for the circus animal just like any other follower.
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it means also that in one turn I can deploy 2 followers like acrobat, the regoular one and the phantom
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Yes, but only when you place the tile.
So you can place an acrobat on the acrobat tile if you place one of the 8 surrounding tiles. Then you cannot also place the phantom, that is only when you place the acrobat tile
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Yes, but only when you place the tile.
So you can place an acrobat on the acrobat tile if you place one of the 8 surrounding tiles. Then you cannot also place the phantom, that is only when you place the acrobat tile
Please cite your source for this. I didn't find any such restriction in the CAR or the UtBT rules.
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normally I agree with just a bill...
BUT...
it's true that a phantom can't use the flyer machine or the magic portal IF they was just used from another follower...
so it has sense to think about the acrobats space in this way...
mmmmmhhhhh ::)
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a phantom can't use the flyer machine or the magic portal IF they was just used from another follower...
That is specifically because the flying machine and magic portal are both one-time-use features. Once a follower uses one of them, it is "claimed" and cannot be used again. The CAR gives the specific rationale (on page 47) that "no follower (including the Phantom) can be placed on a claimed feature." This is the core rule that results in the two specific clarifications about those features.
However, acrobat pyramids are not "claimed" by a single follower (if they were, then a second and third acrobat would be forbidden). Acrobat spaces are specifically designed to have multiple occupants. I'm not sure the concept of "claimed" even applies here, but if it does then it would apply only when the pyramid is currently full with three followers (and even this is temporary — see below).
So the flyer/portal clarifications should not be assumed to apply to the phantom, because the two situations are very different. In fact, acrobat spaces are so different that they are specifically designed to be re-usable later in the game, even if they were already completed before (the UtBT rules say "After a pyramid has been scored, players can start a new pyramid on the same tile by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it"). This is pretty much the polar opposite of the magic portal and flying machine, which are both once per game.
So, putting together what the CAR and our common sense tell us:
- Generally, no follower can be placed on a claimed feature.
- However, an acrobat space that still has room is not "claimed."
- Acrobat spaces are designed to accommodate multiple followers, and to be used multiple times per game.
- Phantoms work exactly like normal followers; they just have the ability to give you a second move-wood action.
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acrobat pyramids are not "claimed" by a single follower (if they were, then a second and third acrobat would be forbidden). Acrobat spaces are specifically designed to have multiple occupants.
acrobat spaces are so different that they are specifically designed to be re-usable later in the game, even if they were already completed before (the UtBT rules say "After a pyramid has been scored, players can start a new pyramid on the same tile by placing a meeple as an acrobat on it").
ok, you convinced me :(y)
So I can place a tile near an acrobat tile, deploy a normal follower on an acrobat space and then deploy the phantom on another acrobat space of the same tile...
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I was just looking it up in the CAR. I have always worked with the rule that the phantom can only be placed on a second feature on the same tile. So we've put in the (house)rule that you cant use it after you've done anything you do instead of moving the wood (removing with the festival, placing in the WoF, scoring acrobats, etc).
Ive just looked up the rules from HiG, and they basicly say you can place the phantom as second follower on the just placed tile. (so as ive always played it).
In the CAR it says clearly that you can use it after above listed possiblilties and other move the wood (fairy movement, tower placement etc). But it doesnt give a source for this, and i would say the official rules that come with the expansions is leading (at least for me).
So going with that it can only be placed as second follower on the just placed tile, id say you can use it as acrobat if you've just placed the acrobat tile, but not if you placed on of the surrounding 8
;D
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it can only be placed as second follower on the just placed tile, id say you can use it as acrobat if you've just placed the acrobat tile, but not if you placed on of the surrounding 8
but the acrobats tile has the special rule to "move" on them the followers that normally MUST be deploy on the tile just placed from the surrounding 8...
so, why can a normal follower be deploy on the near tile with the acrobat space and the phantom does not?
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Ive just looked up the rules from HiG, and they basicly say you can place the phantom as second follower on the just placed tile.
Yes, but that is only describing the basic case. (Keep in mind that the phantom rules had to fit on two tiny 45x45-mm pages, and this phrase was needed so that players wouldn't wonder if they could deploy the phantom anywhere they wanted.) All followers can be deployed to the just-placed tile under normal circumstances, or to other tiles based on which expansion mechanics are in play (towers, acrobat spaces, the City of Carcassonne, etc.).
Normal, standard-case rules do not override special-case rules for expansion features. If they did, lots of things would fail to work as designed. For example, an assumed rule that limits phantoms to the just-placed tile would mean that phantoms can never stand on top of towers.
When you say later in your post that phantoms can only be placed on the just-placed tile, you are adding a restriction that does not appear in the phantom rules, and is not consistent with a general view of all the rules taken as a whole.
Don't get me wrong, it's a perfectly fine house rule. But I am very protective of the distinction between house rules and official rules.
If you are aware of an official statement that would show I am wrong, I would be very happy to hear it. I welcome correction (when I'm wrong about something, I never want to stay wrong).
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Well, as i like the discussion and i wouldnt mind being wrong, but i would stay with my point of the rules as HiG distributed them. It says that 'in seinem Zug darf ein Spieler dieses Phantom als 2. Gefolgsmann auf die gelegte Karte stellen'.
'In their turn, a player can play this Phantom as second follower on the placed tile'. So I agree it can be used after the builder or pig or any follower, as long as it is on the placed tile. And have HiG ever stated that this sentence can be widely interpretated? Ive only seen this as an official statement regarding the rules, so have only got this to go by.
I don't mind saying it would be a house rule, but am interested in the different opinions here!
It might be a typical case of 'these expansions are meant to be placed with the basegame only and combinations with other expansions are at own risk', but the funny thing is that on the website of HiG on the phantom page it states that it's an expansion with few rules so easy to combine ;D
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The problem here is that you are right Willem, but it's also true that under the Big top comes after the phantom and that the rules of what comes after can contradict what comes before...
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This question needs to go on the forum post that kettlefish monitors, hopefully she will get clarity from HiG at Essen.
Both these expansions have 2 explicit rules. It's unclear which rule takes precedence. As such both options are valid. I suspect the rules for 'Circus' didn't consider the Phantom expansion.
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Here is my understanding & rules I abide by for the Phantom:
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The Phantom
Released by Hans im Glück in 2011
Extra Pieces
• 6 translucent meeples in six colors
Preparation
Every player receives the phantom of his or her color (the purple phantom belongs to the pink[grey] player).
Playing the Game
1. Placing a tile.
Place a tile according to the usual rules.
2. Placing a meeple.
After placing a tile, you may deploy the phantom as a second meeple (on a second feature) on any legal location for a normal meeple. Thus, in one turn you may deploy two followers to two different features of the tile you just placed. When the phantom meeple is returned to your supply, it may be deployed again in the same way in a later turn.
As with a normal meeple, the phantom can also be deployed as the only meeple on a turn, and the phantom meeple always counts as a normal meeple.
3. Scoring a feature.
Score a feature according to the usual rules.
Interactions with other expansions:
Traders & Builders (2): The Builder and Pig must be placed before the Phantom.
The Princess & the Dragon (3):
1. The Dragon can eat the Phantom. [CAR7.4 P45]
2. When a tile with a Volcano is placed, you may not place the Phantom on it. [CAR7.4 P43 N80]
3. The Phantom may be placed after the Fairy. [CAR7.4 P43 N77]
4. When the Princess removes a Knight from the City, the Phantom cannot be placed on that City as a second move. The Princess has used that feature this turn. You may still claim another feature on the tile such as a Road, Field, or a different City with the Phantom. [**CAR7.4 P48 N113]
5. The Magic Portal is a feature on a tile. While only one Meeple may claim the Magic Portal, the Phantom may claim a second unique feature on the tile; this includes the Magic Portal if it was not claimed. [CAR7.4 P47 N99]
The Tower (4): You may place a Meeple at an open tower to close it. Then you may place the Phantom into an area which is safe now because the tower is closed. You may place the Phantom at an open tower to close it.
Under the Big Top (10):
1. The Phantom may be used as an acrobat. This includes placing a non acrobat tile and placing the phantom as an acrobat on the acrobat tile next to it as a second placement.
2. The Phantom may be placed after removing an acrobat pyramid, but may not be placed on the acrobat spaces of the pyramid removed.
The Abbot: The Phantom may be placed after removing the Abbot via its early removal.
The Festival: If the Festival is used to remove a Meeple, the Phantom can still be placed on that turn. [CAR7.4 P140 N376]
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**In regards to the CAR 7.4 on page 48, footnote 113: Expansion 3: The Princess and the Dragon
I disagree with the CAR 7.4 on the phantoms interaction with the Princess. Following the logic and rules of the Magic Portal[CAR7.4 P47 N99] and the festival [CAR7.4 P140 N376], I have deemed that The Phantom should be able to be placed with restrictions similar to that of the magic portal. "While only one Meeple may claim the Magic Portal, the Phantom may claim a second unique feature on the tile." Therefore, When the Princess removes a Knight from the City, the Phantom cannot be placed on that City as a second move. The Princess has used that feature this turn. You may still claim another feature on the tile such as a Road, Field, or a different City with the Phantom. Thus the Phantom cannot be placed into the now-vacated city. My adjustment also follows the rules of non double use of a feature. [CAR7.4 P172 N442]
In the spirit of the Festival interaction, I am able to determine the rule above for the Abbot & Phantom interaction
Think of the acrobat pyramid as a trinity (such as God = Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
There are three (3) acrobats, but only one (1) acrobat pyramid. Each acrobat space counts as it's own unique feature and yet each is part of the acrobat pyramid feature.
This is the logic that I used to determine the validity of the Acrobat & Phantom interaction as described above.
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I hope this helps everyone.
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Mmmh no, I disagree with you...
The princess tile has a special rule: if you use it you can deploy nothing, You can not do anything else!
It's like the volcano tile: you place it, deploy the dragon and stop.
For me the interaction acrobat/phantom has sense just because the acrobat tile has his special rule that deny any normal deploying rule.
Think about that... in all the game there is not a rule that allow you to deploy directly (the flying machine or the magic portal are feature of the tile just placed) a meeple on a tile that it's not the just placed one. The acrobat tile changes the basic rules... it's like the acrobat tile expands the placing step rules of a tile just placed...
So, I say... why can the phatom not be able to use this special placing rule if he has to respect the others like the volcano or the princess one?
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In regards to the princess tile, if you can't place the phantom here with restrictions when removing a piece, then you can't place with fairy movement, festival removal, acrobat pyramid removal, and abbot removal... because each of these are instead of placing a meeple/follower and with exception to the fairy all the others are removal instead of placement. It's a theme of sorts. There should be a universal theme of how it works, not it works with this, but not with that. The whole point of "the phantom can't be placed with the use of the princess" was that removing and placing in the now vacant city is too powerful. The princess is only in one of the cities on each of those tiles, therefore at the least, if the others allow removal with placement of phantom, then the princess should work that way too, but since she used her city, it's off limits because it's claimed by her.
Here is a breakdown of rules in rule books:
Princess & Dragon:
On any turn in which you do not place (or move) a(any) meeple, you may assign the fairy to one of your meeples by placing the fairy directly next to it.
Under the Big Top:
Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid.
The Festival:
Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure you may remove one of your own from another tile.
The Abbot:
On your turn during action 2 (Placing a meeple), if you decide not to place a(any) meeple, you are allowed to take back your abbot. If you do so, you score as many points as the abbot is worth at that time, exactly like an end game monastery final scoring.
As for the volcano it logically makes sense as the Dragon eats everything on its tile. So even if you tried to place a meeple or figure it would be eaten and not scored. The only thing that possibly could be placed and not eaten is the Barn which possibly could be allowed as it is so hard to place in the first place.
My family and friends have argued about the continuity between rules with pieces and this is what made sence. If the phantom works a particular way it should always work that way.
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There should be a universal theme of how it works, not it works with this, but not with that.
I'm a big believer in consistency; it's essential to keeping a game manageable over multiple expansions. But, with all due respect, in this intersection between feature and figure (princess vs. phantom), you are trying to enforce consistency in the wrong dimension, as well as with gravity pulling in the wrong direction. You are trying to enforce feature consistency and to conform the many to the one (requiring all other features in general to work like the princess), when the story told by the rules is rather one of figure consistency that conforms the one to the many (as much as possible, the phantom works like all other followers).
There is no rule or ruling anywhere that suggests the princess' unique and specific rule about phantoms applies to anything other than that situation. And yet there is a very clear rule that phantoms are "always" like other followers: The CAR and even the phantom rules themselves clearly say that the phantom always counts as a normal follower. (Except, of course where specific rules override this, such as getting to deploy as a second move-wood action but being specifically prevented from doing so after princess removal.)
The general principles of rules interpretation leave me no other choice than to arrive at this conclusion, unless and until HiG makes a new exception ruling that the phantom cannot deploy to acrobat stacks as its design would suggest. (Which would be unfortunate, if they decided to add another exception onto the pile.)
The whole point of "the phantom can't be placed with the use of the princess" was that removing and placing in the now vacant city is too powerful."
Yes, and that ruling was unique to that specific situation. The fact that a justification is provided (would be too powerful) makes this even more clear. It was needed because removal from a normal figure is dangerous and disruptive, and the combination of that removal with a second move-wood action is uniquely potent.
A second move-wood action in general is not disruptive/dangerous, and the combination that the special princess rule targets simply does not apply to the acrobat situation.
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Furthermore to support my argument for the phantom ...
Expansions 1-8 were written before the phantom and it was therefore not put into consideration when producing those expansions.
The Festival and the Phantom came out the same year 2011 and since it was decided then that the phantom can be placed after using the Festival power of removal(which clearly states instead of placing a meeple), the same should follow suit in all expansions using a similar function as the phantom power is deemed a bonus placement round and can thus be played.
The Minis along with Expansions 9 & 10 and the Abbot were produced afterwards and should have had consideration for the phantom in place even though there wasn't.
It's all or nothing.
As for the Barn... Abbey and Mayor was produced after Princess and the Dragon and as the Barn is not edible by the Dragon and therefore should be playable on the placement of a Volcano tile.
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There are 2 possible choices I see in regards to the phantom placement in regards to movement/ removal of other figures... Either:
1. The Phantom power of second placement turn (sneaking onto the board) always supersedes/ overrules all other rules in all expansions. Meaning placement is valid after Festival removal, Fairy movement, Princess removal, Acrobat Pyramid removal, Abbot removal ... and any future expansion with a similar function (place/remove instead of placing a figure). The Phantom is treated like a regular Meeple in regards to which features it can claim.
Logical restrictions:
Princess removal is no placing Phantom in her city now vacant.
Acrobat Pyramid removal is no placement of Phantom on the Acrobat Pyramid spaces now vacant. Festival removal is no placement of Phantom on the Feature now vacant.
Abbot removal is no placement of Phantom on the Monastery(cloister) now vacant.
2. The Phantom power of second placement turn (sneaking onto the board) is superseded/ overwritten by other expansions. Meaning placement is NOT valid after Festival removal, Fairy movement, Princess removal, Acrobat Pyramid removal, Abbot removal ... and any future expansion with a similar function (place/remove instead of placing a figure).
Since the Phantom has been deemed able to be placed after the Fairy and Festival by HiG thereby I must come to the conclusion that choice 1 is the official rules maintaining continuity.
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I still stand with the trinity aspect of actually placing the Phantom on the Acrobat Pyramid.
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You're making this more complicated than it really is, and both of the options you suggest contradict one or more rules in some way.
Here's my final attempt to explain this.
The only objection I've seen to letting the phantom work like other followers where acrobat stacks are concerned is this: Some players looking at The Phantom rulesheet read "a player may place his phantom as a second follower (on a second feature) on the tile he just placed," and assume this means the phantom can only ever deploy to the just-placed tile. (In making their argument, some of them have inserted the word "only" into that sentence, which of course changes its meaning.)
I've been trying to explain that the purpose of that phrase was simply to make sure players didn't think the phantom had free reign to go anywhere on the map. It was just describing the general case, not imposing a special restriction that applied only to the phantom! It was never meant to state "the phantom is forbidden from legally ending up on other tiles using effects such as magic portals, wooden towers, and all other future game mechanics that allow deploying somewhere else".
But you don't have to take my word for it. HiG made a ruling in November 2013, which appears in CAR 7.4 as footnote 442 (emphasis mine):
"A Phantom can also be played to areas such as the Wheel of Fortune or a tower – the Phantom is not restricted to placement on the tile that was just placed. Note, however, the prohibition on double use of magic portals and flier symbols below."
That's it, case closed, end of story. "The Phantom is not restricted to placement on the tile that was just placed." It can go to an unfinished acrobat pyramid, as long as it follows the rules that apply to all followers. The phantom is a follower in every way, with the special ability to deploy as a second move-wood action as long as it does not take advantage of the princess clearing the way and it does not double-use a magic portal or flying machine.
Those are the rules.
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You're making this more complicated than it really is, and both of the options you suggest contradict one or more rules in some way.
I respect your opinion, but my Asperger's wants flow and continuity that is not there in this one instance. I feel that you and other people are making this much more complicated than it really needs to be.
Here's my final attempt to explain my clean simple flowing logic that has NO CONTRADICTIONS to official rules in any of the manuals and KEEPS with the SPIRIT of the Phantom functionality.
Princess and Dragon Expansion
The Magic Portal is a feature on a tile. While only one Meeple may claim the Magic Portal, the Phantom may claim a second unique feature on the tile; this includes the Magic Portal if it was not claimed. [CAR7.4 P47 N99]
The Princess is part of the City feature on the Her Tile
When the Princess removes a Knight from the City, the Phantom cannot be placed on that City as a second move(This in itself is too powerful). The Princess has used/claimed that feature this turn. You may still claim another feature on the tile such as a Road, Field, or a different City with the Phantom. (This gives the Phantom its normal ability without being too powerful.) If you don't believe me, then try it in a game yourself.
But you don't have to take my word for it. HiG made a ruling in November 2013, which appears in CAR 7.4 as footnote 442 (emphasis mine):
"A Phantom can also be played to areas such as the Wheel of Fortune or a tower – the Phantom is not restricted to placement on the tile that was just placed. Note, however, the prohibition on double use of magic portals and flier symbols below."
I have never stated anything that would disagree with this statement. and it completely agrees with everything I have said are the rules of the game.
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My post was trying to respond to multiple statements by multiple posters; sorry if I didn't make that clear.
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Just a Bill... I sent you a PM on SLACK.
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Wow! A lot of text! ;D
But you don't have to take my word for it. HiG made a ruling in November 2013, which appears in CAR 7.4 as footnote 442 (emphasis mine):
"A Phantom can also be played to areas such as the Wheel of Fortune or a tower – the Phantom is not restricted to placement on the tile that was just placed. Note, however, the prohibition on double use of magic portals and flier symbols below."
I have never stated anything that would disagree with this statement. and it completely agrees with everything I have said are the rules of the game.
So we agree that we can deploy a phantom like a normal follower on one of the free acrobat space...