Author Topic: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021  (Read 1185 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2021, 12:46:03 PM »
I have simplified the rules affecting Messages according to this clarification from 1/2021. This affected:
* Messages
* Order of Play
* Scoring During the Game
* Scoring After the Game

In C2 now there is only one round of Messages in Step 4A after the Catapult (so one Message in a normal turn or one Message per turn part in a double turn). C1 stays the same.

This said, I haven't moved the actions scored immediately in 2. Placing a meeple until now, since there is no clear answer from HiG. Let's see if they clarify their position soon.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 12:51:20 PM by Meepledrone »
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Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2021, 01:49:43 PM »
Also taking into account all scorings from 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2 and 2C?

Yes, Just the final position of the scoring figures is taken into consideration if any of them moved. This leaves an open question about scoring negative points (question sent to HiG about this too).

On another note, after a long conversation on Discord (about which I also sent questions to validate their answers), they said that:
* Scorings happening in 1A, 1B, 1C and (allegedly) 2A happen immediately.
* Scorings triggered in 2B-1 and 2C are delayed and are scored in 3 (not specified when for now: 3A for the sake of simplicity? 3B along with features scored?). This was important for the dragon (question not fully answered since January and sent again to HiG)
* Scorings happening in 3B, 3C and 4A scored in their respective steps.

This also has some side effects on points considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne (question sent to HiG about this too):
* Positive scorings happening in 1A, 1B and 4A (happening after sending a meeple to Carcassonne) should not be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Positive scorings happening in 1C, 3A?, 3B, 3C should be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Negative scorings should not be considered.

So as you can see, many moving parts I wanted to clarify. But let's work with what we have so far.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Fruit-Bearing_Trees#Harvestiː "immediately" and in 2. Placing a meeple.

No matter if the rules say immediately, HiG state no points are scored in 2. Placing a meeple. So the only option I see -and therefore my question to HiG- is that actions take place in this phase but points are scored in 3. Scoring a feature. No answer yet though after several months.

I quoted the rules to them stating the scoring happened immediatel,y and even the clarification about removing and scoring the abbot, that was crystal clear about removing and scoring the abbot in 2. Placing a meeple, but they didn't come to clear conclusion:

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot#cite_note-13

Quote
The scoring of the abbot scoring occurs immediately during the 2. Placing a meeple phase when the abbot is removed. This effectively protects the abbot from the dragon and produces a scoring round for Messages. Afterwards, the normal scoring phase occurs. (3/2015)

This means the HiG representative was contradicting the aforementioned clarifications but never answered my initial question completely. I was wanted them to confirm that when placing a dragon tile, you could remove and score the abbot before the dragon moves, so you could prevent the dragon from eating your abbot. No clear answer yet besides the scoring does not happen in 2. Placing a meeple.

What are the corect answers?
1. You score your shepherd:
a) You remove the shepherd and the sheep in step 2C, but score the points in step 3.
b) You remove the shepherd and the sheep in step 3 and score the points in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

2. You score your abbot:
a) You remove the abbot in step 2B-1, but score the points in step 3.
b) You remove the abbot in step 3 and score the points in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

3. You score a pyramid of acrobatsː
a) You remove the acrobats in step 2B-1, but the points are scored in step 3.
b) You remove the acrobats in step 3 and the points are scored in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

3. You harvestː
a) You place the token in your supply in step 2C, but score the points in step 3.
b) You place the token in your supply in step 3 and score the points in step 3.
a) You place the token in your supply in step 2C, but score the points in step 2C.
b) You place the token in your supply in step 3 and score the points in step 2C.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

HiG created a paradox...

Also taking into account all scorings from 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2 and 2C?

Yes, Just the final position of the scoring figures is taken into consideration if any of them moved. This leaves an open question about scoring negative points (question sent to HiG about this too).

On another note, after a long conversation on Discord (about which I also sent questions to validate their answers), they said that:
* Scorings happening in 1A, 1B, 1C and (allegedly) 2A happen immediately.
* Scorings triggered in 2B-1 and 2C are delayed and are scored in 3 (not specified when for now: 3A for the sake of simplicity? 3B along with features scored?). This was important for the dragon (question not fully answered since January and sent again to HiG)
* Scorings happening in 3B, 3C and 4A scored in their respective steps.

This also has some side effects on points considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne (question sent to HiG about this too):
* Positive scorings happening in 1A, 1B and 4A (happening after sending a meeple to Carcassonne) should not be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Positive scorings happening in 1C, 3A?, 3B, 3C should be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Negative scorings should not be considered.

So as you can see, many moving parts I wanted to clarify. But let's work with what we have so far.
So the requirements for placing a meeple in the City of Carcassonne ignores the point from fairy, the points from gifts, the negative points from peasant revolts (default, as they are negative), the bazaar points, prisoner ransom and the catapult points?

What about https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4986.0?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 05:04:35 AM by Carcassonne93 »
I translate WikiCarpedia in Romanian, where I have over 20.000 edits. My WikiCarpedia user page: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/User:Carcassonne93. See at https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Category:Finalizate the WikiCarpedia pages completely translated in Romanian.

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2021, 02:58:59 PM »
HiG was stressing that you consider those points scored after the tile is placed. But this means including points not related directly to the tile just placed, such as the abbot or an acrobat pyramid (making little sense to me). Before all this, we were assuming that sending a meeple to Carcassone only considered those points scored in steps 3B and 3C. Now things get tangled due to the scorings allegedly deferred from points triggered in 2. Placing a meeple

Like I said, IMHO too many unaswered questions and rather a tunnel vision in their responses so far. No global view of the global picture and the implications of their clarifications, so each answer connects to another topic that unleashes a spiralling number of related issues.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 03:04:31 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2021, 05:03:02 AM »
Also taking into account all scorings from 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2 and 2C?

Yes, Just the final position of the scoring figures is taken into consideration if any of them moved. This leaves an open question about scoring negative points (question sent to HiG about this too).

On another note, after a long conversation on Discord (about which I also sent questions to validate their answers), they said that:
* Scorings happening in 1A, 1B, 1C and (allegedly) 2A happen immediately.
* Scorings triggered in 2B-1 and 2C are delayed and are scored in 3 (not specified when for now: 3A for the sake of simplicity? 3B along with features scored?). This was important for the dragon (question not fully answered since January and sent again to HiG)
* Scorings happening in 3B, 3C and 4A scored in their respective steps.

This also has some side effects on points considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne (question sent to HiG about this too):
* Positive scorings happening in 1A, 1B and 4A (happening after sending a meeple to Carcassonne) should not be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Positive scorings happening in 1C, 3A?, 3B, 3C should be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Negative scorings should not be considered.

So as you can see, many moving parts I wanted to clarify. But let's work with what we have so far.

"Negative scorings should not be considered" including the ransom for a prisoner?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2021, 06:10:58 AM »
Yep... but since your whole turn is a long round of scoring, how can you exclude its effect on your scoring figures?

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2021, 03:22:31 AM »
That is a great clarification, making the game a lot easier.

Indeed. It's great and matched the initial approach on BB4 and BB6. What makes me think why they conveyed such a complicated approach in the clarifications from 5/2014 and 10/2014.

Now one question, what if I move my messenger for correct windrose placement, my messenger ends on a dark space, then I score a city with my scoring meeple and it doesn't end on a dark space.

Do I get a message since the last movement of my messenger was to a dark space, or not since the last overall movement wasn't to a dark space? (I suggest the second option to make it easier, the last movement has to be to a dark space).

You have to consider which scorings figures you moved during your turn, and check the last position of each of them on the scoreboard. In this case, you moved both and one of them ended up on a dark space, so you receive a message.

This means, you have to evaluate your whole turn as one round of scoring even if the scoring events happen in different steps.

And what if the last movement was backwards and ended up on a dark space (got 2 points for not activating a 20 anniversary tile, then lost 2 for protecting a meeple from peasant revolts)?

We don't have an official answer.

I also asked HiG if you receive a message when landing on dark spaces after scoring negative points. No answer yet.
I think that we can work with idea that you are rewarded when receive message. So if player score after turn is greater that before his turn. Dark space represent receiving of message. If it's smaller or same (negative points like ransom payment, rebuy of meeple from bads or Vodyanoy  or person revolt payment) then not receiving message.

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Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2021, 04:12:14 AM »
That may be the easiest solution, I like it  :yellow-meeple:
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=346

Divider cards for CI & CII both in French & English:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=535

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2021, 04:18:23 AM »
I like it too. This means the order of scoring is irrelevant when combining positive and negative scorings in the same turn. You  just consider your final position on the scoreboard compared with your initial position.  :(y) :(y)

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2021, 03:23:36 AM »
Yeah. Doesn't matter order. But final score.
In other words
Scoringmeeple on position 32.
You have tile for finish road with score +5.
Than you have 37
But you remove one meeple from Vodyanoy by -2 points.
Final position 35 - dark space.
That 35 is greater then 32 you are rewarded by rceiving message.

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2021, 10:02:40 AM »
Yeah. Doesn't matter order. But final score.
In other words
Scoringmeeple on position 32.
You have tile for finish road with score +5.
Than you have 37
But you remove one meeple from Vodyanoy by -2 points.
Final position 35 - dark space.
That 35 is greater then 32 you are rewarded by rceiving message.

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

That would be the idea... But one thing: you don't pay any points to remove a meeple from the Vodyanoy tile (your penalty is that you cannot do any other action in Step 2B-1). You lose 2 points per meeple still on the Vodyanoy tile at the end of the game.

Carcassonne93 suggested this too but I forgot to clarify this point earlier.  :'(

Please check the rules here:
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Russian_Promos_(1st_edition)#Vodyanoy

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2021, 02:53:51 PM »
That's true. Need to find any "more real" example :D

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2021, 02:41:56 PM »
"Negative scorings should not be considered" including the ransom for a prisoner? For City of Carcassonne.

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2021, 02:44:05 PM »
Also taking into account all scorings from 1A, 1B, 1C, 2A, 2B-1, 2B-2 and 2C?

Yes, Just the final position of the scoring figures is taken into consideration if any of them moved. This leaves an open question about scoring negative points (question sent to HiG about this too).

On another note, after a long conversation on Discord (about which I also sent questions to validate their answers), they said that:
* Scorings happening in 1A, 1B, 1C and (allegedly) 2A happen immediately.
* Scorings triggered in 2B-1 and 2C are delayed and are scored in 3 (not specified when for now: 3A for the sake of simplicity? 3B along with features scored?). This was important for the dragon (question not fully answered since January and sent again to HiG)
* Scorings happening in 3B, 3C and 4A scored in their respective steps.

This also has some side effects on points considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne (question sent to HiG about this too):
* Positive scorings happening in 1A, 1B and 4A (happening after sending a meeple to Carcassonne) should not be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Positive scorings happening in 1C, 3A?, 3B, 3C should be considered when sending a meeple to Carcassonne.
* Negative scorings should not be considered.

So as you can see, many moving parts I wanted to clarify. But let's work with what we have so far.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Fruit-Bearing_Trees#Harvestiː "immediately" and in 2. Placing a meeple.

No matter if the rules say immediately, HiG state no points are scored in 2. Placing a meeple. So the only option I see -and therefore my question to HiG- is that actions take place in this phase but points are scored in 3. Scoring a feature. No answer yet though after several months.

I quoted the rules to them stating the scoring happened immediatel,y and even the clarification about removing and scoring the abbot, that was crystal clear about removing and scoring the abbot in 2. Placing a meeple, but they didn't come to clear conclusion:

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Abbot#cite_note-13

Quote
The scoring of the abbot scoring occurs immediately during the 2. Placing a meeple phase when the abbot is removed. This effectively protects the abbot from the dragon and produces a scoring round for Messages. Afterwards, the normal scoring phase occurs. (3/2015)

This means the HiG representative was contradicting the aforementioned clarifications but never answered my initial question completely. I was wanted them to confirm that when placing a dragon tile, you could remove and score the abbot before the dragon moves, so you could prevent the dragon from eating your abbot. No clear answer yet besides the scoring does not happen in 2. Placing a meeple.

What are the corect answers?
1. You score your shepherd:
a) You remove the shepherd and the sheep in step 2C, but score the points in step 3.
b) You remove the shepherd and the sheep in step 3 and score the points in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

2. You score your abbot:
a) You remove the abbot in step 2B-1, but score the points in step 3.
b) You remove the abbot in step 3 and score the points in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

3. You score a pyramid of acrobatsː
a) You remove the acrobats in step 2B-1, but the points are scored in step 3.
b) You remove the acrobats in step 3 and the points are scored in step 3.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)

3. You harvestː
a) You place the token in your supply in step 2C, but score the points in step 3.
b) You place the token in your supply in step 3 and score the points in step 3.
a) You place the token in your supply in step 2C, but score the points in step 2C.
b) You place the token in your supply in step 3 and score the points in step 2C.

The reply by HiG hints that answer should be a)
We should play with scoring in 2B-1 and 2C or 3A? Also, why this would still influence the gameplay anymore, as the messages were moved at the end of phase 3?

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2021, 04:08:49 PM »
The phase has no impact on Messages for the time being, but it is relevat for robbers, since you could use any scorings delayed from 2. Placing a meeple to prevent a robber from stealing other points from you in Step 3B.

No answer to this conundrum yet.

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Clarification of rules (Messages) - with HiG - 29 01 2021
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2021, 04:44:24 PM »
"Negative scorings should not be considered" including the ransom for a prisoner? For City of Carcassonne.
Nothing about this?


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