JCZ 3.0: Wagon Sharing - Bug Report

[danisthirty]

@farin

Jungleboy and I played a game recently which included River 2, Traders & Builders, Abbey & Mayor and The Phantom. We were using JCloisterZone 3.0 and it was an excellent game which seemed to run relatively smoothly but for one issue involving the wagon:

I completed a feature which included JB’s wagon. I won the points and trade tokens for it as expected, but was then given the opportunity to place JB’s wagon which shouldn’t have been possible. Despite this, I was unable to place it anywhere and so skipped this opportunity, control was passed back to JB and the game continued as normal with the wagon being returned to JB. As such, it didn’t cause too much disruption on this occasion.

In the situation described above I believe JB should have had the opportunity to place his wagon elsewhere before his next turn began, although I don’t fully understand how the wagon works so can’t be sure of this. I’m certain I shouldn’t have been given the opportunity to place it though! I can provide a video of this if it would be helpful (I was recording the game)?

The other problem, which I’ve seen mentioned recently by MrNumbers, was that in the chat window every message both on the pre-game setup screen and during the game itself came up as being from me. JB had the same problem in that he saw all messages as being from himself. Hopefully this is easily fixed as it causes a lot of confusion as it is at the moment!

Linkback: https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1044.0

[jungleboy]

According to the CAR:

If a feature occupied by a wagon is scored, the wagon counts as a normal follower. After scoring, the player may return the wagon to his or her supply, or may move the wagon to a directly adjacent road, city, or cloister.

It doesn't say that one can only move the wagon if that player scored points from the completion of the feature, so it must be assumed that any player with a wagon in the completed feature has the opportunity to move it after scoring. Though perhaps this should be clarified.

Meanwhile, something else that came up in both JCZ 2.7 and 3.0 in my games with MrNumbers using Princess and Dragon and the Phantom was the ability to use the princess tile to remove a follower, then add the phantom in that same move. In the iOS version, this is not a legal move. The CAR does not mention it, so I think clarification is needed.

P.S. I really like Abbey and Mayor. It's a bit scary at first because of all the new wood and all the things that are going on but I think it adds a lot of interesting complexity to the game.

[danisthirty]

Meanwhile, something else that came up in both JCZ 2.7 and 3.0 in my games with MrNumbers using Princess and Dragon and the Phantom was the ability to use the princess tile to remove a follower, then add the phantom in that same move. In the iOS version, this is not a legal move. The CAR does not mention it, so I think clarification is needed.

I guess that's a question for the Official Rules forum but I can't see why you shouldn't be able to do this. This is just my opinion though.

P.S. I really like Abbey and Mayor. It's a bit scary at first because of all the new wood and all the things that are going on but I think it adds a lot of interesting complexity to the game.

It certainly adds a lot of variety but I'm not a big fan of it myself. I think the Mayor makes it too easy to steal cities and I don't like that the Abbey tiles make it so easy to rescue trapped meeples. The Wagon just confuses me (hence that I didn't use mine!) although this is no reason to dislike it I suppose. I do like Barns however, when I remember to use them!

Despite all this though, I did feel that it worked out well in the game we had so I'm sure I'll be playing with it again soon! 

[jungleboy]

I don't like that the Abbey tiles make it so easy to rescue trapped meeples.

I guess it depends on your philosophy of how to play the game. When I play against the Jérés and MrNumbers of the world (and you, I suppose!) I try to play the trapping game (though not as well), but honestly I much prefer to complete features of my own than to trap opponents, all else being equal. I don't like gaps in the board so I like it how the abbey helps fill these (and get me out of trouble when y'all trap me ).

To put it another way, if you could go back and recreate the original game, knowing what we know now, would you have the same 72 tiles in the base game or would you include tiles like CFRC, CRFF, CFFR, CRCF etc? Personally, I would add in these tiles to make the likelihood of trapping less.

[danisthirty]

I feel that Carcassonne is most rewarding when you get a big score so completing your own features is often preferable to using your tiles elsewhere where they’re not scoring you any points in order to set up a trap or otherwise make life difficult for your opponent(s). Big scores don’t always win though, so if it’s a game I really want to win I’m usually more driven to reduce the scoring potential of my opponent(s) then increase my own score. 

Personally I don’t really mind holes in the landscape. Even if I did, I think these are still preferable to bright orangey red things that clearly don’t make any attempt to fit in with anything around them! Also, although the way Abbeys play out in the proper/ physical game works well, it’s a pain on JCloisterZone having to skip placing your Abbey (if you still have it) at the start of every turn if there is somewhere it can be placed. This isn’t a complaint as such as I can’t see how else it could be implemented, more an observation I suppose.

It’s interesting that the Winter Edition contains 12 extra tiles, many of which match the configurations you’ve mentioned that were previously missing from the base game. I suppose part of the reason for this is to reduce the likelihood of getting meeples trapped but it still feels like a perfectly valid strategy to me, regardless of who I’m playing against (except perhaps my wife). 

[farin]

Hard to say something to wagon observed wagon trouble. Saved game is key to fix it (and sometimes is still not enough)

I want to add bug report feature to next release. My vision is only comment form and send button. - It makes saved game, append some internal event log and send me all to email.
It should make reporting easy and provide me enough information to resolve.

Second comment is about abbeys. Must pass abbey placement on unwanted place can be annoying. I think about it before.
There is option to say "all current holes not interest me" - and until new holes is created or you cancel this order abbey placement will be passed automatically.

Last comment, for 3.2 (3.1 is standalone mode / playserver) I want to add  UI for custom configuration - eg tiles from Abbey&Mayor + wagon but  no Abbey and no Mayor.
This should satisfy all complains about too powerful something :-)

[rfielder]

Also, although the way Abbeys play out in the proper/ physical game works well, it’s a pain on JCloisterZone having to skip placing your Abbey (if you still have it) at the start of every turn if there is somewhere it can be placed. This isn’t a complaint as such as I can’t see how else it could be implemented, more an observation I suppose.

Why not have the Abbey appear as a legal piece to be placed, when appropriate, along with the follower, wagon, barn, etc?  It can be an icon on the row of available pieces to place.

[rfielder]

Monwil and I have played a couple of games with several expansions, and the issues with the wagon, and the interaction between the dragon and the builder, are getting to be rather annoying.

When you are sitting side be side in the same office it is not hard to deal with.  However, I would not want to be facing these issues when playing someone elsewhere in the world.

[danisthirty]

Also, although the way Abbeys play out in the proper/ physical game works well, it’s a pain on JCloisterZone having to skip placing your Abbey (if you still have it) at the start of every turn if there is somewhere it can be placed. This isn’t a complaint as such as I can’t see how else it could be implemented, more an observation I suppose.

Why not have the Abbey appear as a legal piece to be placed, when appropriate, along with the follower, wagon, barn, etc?  It can be an icon on the row of available pieces to place.

Welcome back Robert.

The problem with this approach is that you need to be given the option to place your Abbey before your tile has been drawn. It’s not an alternative to be placed if you don’t like the drawn tile, it’s an alternative to drawing the tile in the first place.

Monwil and I have played a couple of games with several expansions, and the issues with the wagon, and the interaction between the dragon and the builder, are getting to be rather annoying.

When you are sitting side be side in the same office it is not hard to deal with.  However, I would not want to be facing these issues when playing someone elsewhere in the world.

Hopefully farin will get round to these soon.

[Gerry]

I don't play the Tower with card tiles (at least not the published rules version) but I tried it on Jcloister and managed to take myself prisoner.  Not sure if this is a bug or just me messing up.   

[kettlefish]

I don't play the Tower with card tiles (at least not the published rules version) but I tried it on Jcloister and managed to take myself prisoner.  Not sure if this is a bug or just me messing up.   

That is correct.
Please look in the CAR v7.0-2 page 66

[Gerry]

I don't play the Tower with card tiles (at least not the published rules version) but I tried it on Jcloister and managed to take myself prisoner.  Not sure if this is a bug or just me messing up.   

That is correct.
Please look in the CAR v7.0-2 page 66

Yes, you are correct.  As I said I have never played the Tower.  But I do like the tile designs and the wood tower pieces look much better than the wooden bridges.

[rfielder]

I don't play the Tower with card tiles (at least not the published rules version) but I tried it on Jcloister and managed to take myself prisoner.  Not sure if this is a bug or just me messing up.   

If you place a follower on top of a tower to protect a feature you are building, then complete and score the feature, this is a good way to get your follower back.

[rfielder]

Tried to play against the computer at lunchtime today.

The issue with the wagon happened.  Since it was all one one computer, there was nothing to do but cancel the game and close the application.  The game was hung.  Saving and reloading was not advisable in this situation.

At this point, I would normally trash the application and look for another one that is reliable.  Given the circumstances, will give farin a bit longer to fix things.

If another release appears with more features and no bug fixes, that will be it for me.

[farin]

ok guys

There is modified 3.0
jcloisterzone.com/builds/JCloisterZone-3.0.1-bugreport.zip

It has additional simple reporting feature. menu Help / Report bug
Anybody suffering with wagon issue, when it happen then please:
click, provide any useful information and download report file
send it to me

report contains internal level log, saved game, system info and board screenshot

thanks for cooperation