Carc Central Community > Community Rules (Meepledrone & Friends)
Markets of Leipzig - Multiple roads completed
Meepledrone:
--- Quote from: OneEyedOwl on January 17, 2022, 10:18:53 PM ---I think that all features should be scored at the same time, because they all are completed at the same time.
--- End quote ---
This should be the default situation, but this cannot be always the case if you involve robbers, the teacher or batthouses. Scorings have to be done in a given order so players decide what points are stolen by robbers on the scoreboard or recieved by the teacher, or the meeples going to empty bathhouses.
So my point is that there are two processes happening that may need to be decoupled: evaluating features/figures (deciding the points to be scored by each player, even in considering multiple scoring events) and the actual scoring (the sequence those scoring events are noted on the scoreboard).
Why? Because in a worst case scenario a dingle loop for evaluation and scoring cannot satidfy all the constraints.
Check this case from the Advent Quiz 2020:
https://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=4911.msg73207#msg73207
The order of evaluation could be:
>> Option A:
1. City occupied by Red, worth 6 points.
2. Road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.
3. Castle occupied by Red, triggered by road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.
>> Option B:
1. Road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.
2. Castle occupied by Red, triggered by road occupied by Yellow, worth 3 points.
3. City occupied by Red, worth 6 points.
In order to minimize the number of points stolen from Red, the player should score 3 points for the castle first and then 6 points for the city with the same meeple, with the same scoring figure: the meeple or the messager. This way, the yellow robber will only steal the first scoring noted and will be removed at that point.
So, as you can see, evaluations follow an order (or can happen simultaneously, as you mention, when possible) but scorings may require a sequence that may not follow the evaluation order.
So if both processes can be decoupled (when required at least), you will be able to handle complex cases without running into trouble. No matter how you evaluate, you should be always get a predictible result: in control of the scoring and free from any constraints imposed by the evaluation dependencies or the scoring sequencing.
Meepledrone:
--- Quote from: Bumsakalaka on January 18, 2022, 12:09:34 AM ---It need consistency with other expansions. We know that it's possible to set order of scoring features (Castle). We know that it's decision, when one road has two meeples of same player and one is send to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig then second can score that road and het Wainwrights quarter bonus.
As there is no such as think in rules like in Watchtowers expansion, where is declarative said that "Watchtower bonus" is scored before watchtower, then we can't divide scoring sequence to two parts to send meeples to Leipzig and then scored roads get affected by it's bonus.
For consistency I prefer this:
1. Player decides order of scoring features
2. He is able to send meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig from any road in this order.
3. Each road scored but after sent meeple to Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig will get bonus.
I suppose this meets consistency of other rules in Carcassonne.
--- End quote ---
Think the whole thing this way: Leipzig bonuses are only available on the next turn (or next scoring round to be more precise with messages or double turns). The only edge case commented in the rules is the road sending the meeple to the Wainrights quarter which would benefit from the bonus on the same tuen if the player has more than one meeple.
I wouldn't try to make it extensive to other roads scored on the same turn by the player. As seen above you would run into an issue: what roads are entitled to the bonus? Those evaluated after the road sending the meeple to Leipzig or those scored after the one sending the meeple? Remember there may be a mismatch between both sequences due to various contraints as commented earlier...
The strategy here would be all or nothing to avoid race conditions:
* All the roads get the Wainwrights quarter bonus if the meeple is in Leipzing at the begining of the turn (or turn part for double turns)
* No road gets the Wainwrights quarter bonus if the meeple is sent to Leipzing this turn (or turn part for double turns) except for the road sending a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter if the player has more than one meeple on it.
Meepledrone:
--- Quote from: Bumsakalaka on January 18, 2022, 12:18:59 AM ---And comment to other options in Poll
A. None in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received this turn as an edge case) - this meet other rules but not meet rule of two meeples on same road, one sent to Wainwrights quarter and second scoring road receiving also Wainwrights quarter bonus.
--- End quote ---
On the contrary, this option meets the rules and considers the edge case with more than one meeple on the road sending the meeple to the Wainwrights quarter. This is the all or nothin approach a commented in my previous post including the edge case.
--- Quote from: Bumsakalaka on January 18, 2022, 12:18:59 AM ---B. All other roads in this turn (the Wainwrights quarter bonus is received immediately this turn) - this is con consistent with rules. Because if meeple is not in Wainwrights quarter, player cannot receive bonus (even backward) (Hmm but this can be solutions for Apps).
--- End quote ---
I agree. I don0t like this option because all roads benefit in advance, so to speak, of the bonus. It is too generous.
--- Quote from: Bumsakalaka on January 18, 2022, 12:18:59 AM ---So solution for Apps can be: Check if there is Road scored and player has not meeple in Wainwrights quarter, give possibility to select meeple sent to Wainwrights quarter and then score other roads - this meet rule, of selected order of scoring features but app get possibility only to choose first - which get bonus. Other situation is that by placing of road can score also opposite player and he has meeple in Wainwrights quarter but after some meeple "Castling" in order of scoring he will loose that majority... but this is to other thread.
--- End quote ---
The order I would apply would be as follows:
- If player scoring for roads connected to Leipzig should be allowed to send a meeple per road to Leipzig if there are quarters not occupied by the played yet.
- The player may select any road and decide the target quarter (this should be allowed to be done and undone, since you may change your mind)
- Once all the decisions are made, only the road sending a meeple to the Wainwrights quarter gets the bonus on the same turn if it has more than one meeple.
- The roads sending meeples to Leipzig with one meeple are worth 0 points for the feature itself (feature-level bonuses are also discarded: German castles, for example), but may trigger bonuses as usual: fairy, watchtowers,... This means, the road is evaluated (a castle can score for it) but the player on the road receives no points for it.
- Any Leipzig bonus corresponding to meeples placed in previous turns are applied.
- The meeples added to Leipzig this turn are "committed" and will be effective next turn.
kettlefish:
ML06
--- Quote from: Meepldrone ---Let’s assume multiple roads are completed and scored on the same turn a meeple on one of them is
sent to the Wainwrights quarter. Which option is the correct one?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---A. Only the road with the meeple sent to Leipzig may get the Wainwrights bonus. No other road in the current turn may receive the bonus.
--- End quote ---
No, it is wrong.
--- Quote ---B. All the roads may get the Wainwrights quarter bonus. All the roads scored in the current turn may benefit from the bonus right away, but the one sending the meeple to Leipzig has to comply with the conditions for the edge case (the road would need more than one meeple on it to score and get the bonus).
--- End quote ---
example I: 2 just finished roads - road1 with 2 meeples - road2 with 1 meeple - all meeples belongs to one player.
Yes, but only when the player send a meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from that road (road1) where he has two meeples onto it. Then he will score both roads and gets bonus points for both roads.
No, if the player send the only meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from the other road (road2) where he has only that one meeple onto it.
Then the player will get only for the road (road1) with 2 meeples onto it the score points and the bonus points. The player can't get any score or bonus points for the road2
example II: 2 just finished roads - road1 with 2 red meeples and one blue big meeple - road2 with 1 red meeple
No, when the red player send a meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from that road (road1) where he has two meeples onto it, then he loses his majority on that road and gets no points for road1 also no bonus points. The red player scores the road2 and gets bonus points.
The blue player has the majority of that road1 - he scores the road1 and gets bonus points if he already has a blue meeple on the Wainwringhts quarter.
No, if the red player send the only meeple to the Wainwringhts quarter from the other road (road2) where he has only that one meeple onto it.
Then the red player will get only for the road (road1) with 2 meeples onto it the score points and the bonus points. The red player can't get any score or bonus points for the road2.
The blue player has togehter with the red player the majority of that road1 - he scores the road1 and gets bonus points if he already has a blue meeple on the Wainwringhts quarter.
For the next part I will open a new reply
kettlefish:
--- Quote ---C. It depends on the order the roads are scored:
--- End quote ---
yes. And the score of the just finished roads take place after all players (who have meeples onto these just finished roads) decided if they send a meeple to Leipzig.
--- Quote ---a. Those roads scored before the one used to send a meeple to Leipzig will not get the bonus.
--- End quote ---
No
--- Quote ---b. The road sending the meeple to Leipzig only if it complies with the edge case.
--- End quote ---
I do not understand this - do you mean the special case when the player has 2 meeples on the just finished road?
--- Quote ---c. The roads scored after the one sending the meeple to Leipzig will get the bonus.
--- End quote ---
This is also not clear enough. Yes, the score of the roads take place after the sending of the meeple to Leipzig.
-------------------------------------
Here are some more examples:
example III: You finished 2 roads with the just placed tile. On each road you have one meeple. You decide not to score one road and send this meeple to the Wainwrights quarter in Leipzig. For this road you can't get points for score and no bonus. Than you score the other just finished road. For this road you get the score and the 1 piont bonus for each tile of that road.
example IV: The same as example III, but you have two meeples onto one of the roads. If you decide not to score this road with two meeples onto it, than you can send one of these meeples to the Wainwrights quarter. Than you look to your just finished roads. The one road has still the 2nd meeple there - score the road and get the bonus for it. The same is for the other just finished road with a meeple on it - score and get the bonus points for it.
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