Author Topic: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring  (Read 1096 times)

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2021, 01:41:50 PM »
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Something similar happens to the different components of the feature scoring... Inns/cathedrals is not commutative after the game and the Witch is never commutative. So everything is arranged to be consistent both during the game and after the game:
1. Basic points and modifiers affecting them (inns/catedrals last - so at the end of the game their x0 works perfectly)
2. Mage/Witch (because the Witch is always applied after inns and cathedrals)
3. Feature-related bonuses (because we know for certain that little buildings are applied at the end and then other bonuses affecting the final scoring of the feature like German castles should follow suit, as hinted in the existing clarifications).
The feature scoring is perfect and clear as it is  ;)


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I just kept it that way as a reminder that the rules indicate the evaluation/scoring should happen before the feature itself by default. You can see I always list the figure-related bonus in the epilog in the same order for maintainability reasons. The order is not actually specified.
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The bonuses are in separate blocks for the prolog and the epilog.
The points assigned to the road itself are marked with a yellow block on the right (core feature scoring = points from tiles), so castles, the teacher and robbers, see these points plus the feature-related bonuses as one scoring event. The other bonuses represent one scoring event each.
I know there is a lot much info encoded there.
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I included the bonuses applicable to each feature so it may alse serve as a checklist. If you mix them all, then you may skip one by accident. I know it is too verbose but IMHO it serves a purpose.

It's good that it serves as a checklist, but as you say, there's a lot of info there. That's good for a Carcassonne master, but a random player, even an expert, would probably think (like I did) that if the bonuses are listed along with the feature, in a prologue and an epilogue, that means they have to be scored in this scoring order. After all, that's what prologue and epilogue means, it comes before, and after, so it implies an order, not a liberty of choice.

Maybe a way to make it easy to understand but keep the reminders would be to list :
  • every bonus scoring (toll, fairy, ringmaster, watchtower...etc), listed without dependency to a feature (it'd already serve as a reminder as we'd have to go through it in order to reach the feature list)
  • every feature scoring, with a single line at the beginning of every feature saying "don't forget to score bonuses, separately from the feature scoring: watchtowers, fairy, ringmaster bonus...(listing here, without any details, the bonuses that may apply to the specific feature"

What do you think?

Of course, that'd be a lot of work...  :-[

« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 03:57:55 PM by Meepledrone »
Order of play in french with every major expansions, minis and promos:
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Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2021, 04:04:43 PM »
If we are talking about the Scoring During Turn Sequence page, the scoring for each feature is fully unwound will all its bonuses.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_Turn_Sequence

On the other hand, you have Scoring During the Game, that specifies just the scoring per feature and bonuses are given as separate entries, except Markets of Leipzig for historical reasons, although they can also be moved to a separate entry.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game

Is the latter closer to what you have in mind although no bonuses are listed?
Questions about rules? Check WICA: wikicarpedia.com

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2021, 11:30:18 PM »
If we are talking about the Scoring During Turn Sequence page, the scoring for each feature is fully unwound will all its bonuses.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_Turn_Sequence

On the other hand, you have Scoring During the Game, that specifies just the scoring per feature and bonuses are given as separate entries, except Markets of Leipzig for historical reasons, although they can also be moved to a separate entry.
https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Scoring_During_the_Game

Is the latter closer to what you have in mind although no bonuses are listed?

I do mostly use the scoring during turn sequence since it is really useful to have everything sorted by turn sequence.

Indeed, the scoring during the game has a way of listing items that is closer to what I meant and could be integrated to the scoring during turn sequence (only for Step 3B: Resolve Completed Features), by separating step 3b (still in scoring during turn sequence page) in two subsections:
  • Bonus scoring with a list of every bonus scoring (toll, fairy, ringmaster, watchtower...etc), listed without dependency to a feature (it'd already serve as a reminder as we'd have to go through it in order to reach the feature list)
  • Feature scoring with a list of every feature scoring (eventually, to serve as a reminder, with a single line at the beginning of each feature saying "don't forget to score bonuses, separately from the feature scoring: watchtowers, fairy, ringmaster bonus..." (listing here, without any details, the bonuses that may apply to the specific feature))

That would avoid us to thing "if this bonus is listed under the road scoring (prolog or epilog), it means that it has to be scored directly before/after the road (same with cities, monasteries...). And so prolog and epilog are removed.
And to be even more clear, a phrase at the beginning of step 3b could state "Every feature and bonuses listed below are scored in any order, choosed by the players, but according to the situation at the beginning of step 3b".
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 11:32:49 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2021, 04:17:31 AM »
"If the feature with your ringmaster becomes completed, first score points for the completed feature.

Then, for each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points."

Scoring During Turn Sequence is fine how it is.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2021, 04:30:12 AM »
"If the feature with your ringmaster becomes completed, first score points for the completed feature.

Then, for each Circus and Acrobat tile that your ringmaster is on or adjacent to, score 2 points."

Scoring During Turn Sequence is fine how it is.

If I understand correctly, in step 4, if I have a fairy attached to red ringmaster on a road, and blue having other features: the fairy could be scored, then one of blue's features, then red's road, then one of blue's feature, and then the ringmaster bonus? (here, there's no scoring order rule at all)

Or if you score red ringmaster's fairy, then red's road and ringmaster bonus still have to be scored one after another, before scoring something else ?

Any order can be applied. [...]
So any order can be applied. We follow some conventions to simplify the scoring process and we implicitly use a loop to represent the scoring sequence since we can only do one thing at a time. And iterating through the features to be scored is practical approach, but falls short to address some of the dependencies.

Seems like we all have a different opinion about wether we may score only in a specific sequence or in any order...

My suggestion of changing the scoring during turn sequence was IF we agree on the fact that we may score in any order, and work with a snapshot of the situation at the beginning of step 3 to evaluate points.
But IF we have to score in a specific sequence (meaning we restrict the player's option with robbers, a player can not decide to score a feature before its watchtower for example), then the scoring during turn sequence is perfect as it is, as it tends to interpret the rules that way.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 04:34:04 AM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Carcassonne93

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2021, 04:48:15 AM »
This quote is not just an my opinion. It is an official rule, from the printed rules.

Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2021, 04:56:36 AM »
This quote is not just an my opinion. It is an official rule, from the printed rules.

I know, and there is similar rules for other expansions too, not only for the ringmaster.

Meepledrone's suggestion is to decouple evaluations (and to do them in a specific sequence following the rules) and scorings (and to do them in any order chosed by the players).
I have no opinion about wether this may be correct or not. I did only suggest scoring during turn sequence for if this way of scoring is applied.

Now I let the experts decide about the rules  ;)

Offline Meepledrone

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2021, 10:32:01 AM »
In simple scoring scenaios you can stick to the rules that state some scoring order for features and bonuses:

* Bonuses scored before the feature triggering the scoring:
   - The Gingerbread Man bonus
   - A watchtower bonus
   - A tollhouse bonus

* Bonuses scored after the feature scored
   - The fairy bonus (as hinted by the example here: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/The_Princess_and_The_Dragon#3._Scoring_a_feature_5)
   - The ringmaster bonus
   - Darmstadt church bonus
   - The teacher bonus (the owner can pick a feature, so it is not strictly right after)

* Features scored after the feature triggering their completion
   - Castles (there may be complex dependencies and castle owner may have to decide between several options)

* Players decide the order they score points
* Robbers steal from the first scoring figures moved on the scoreboard.
* Barber-Surgeons: If there are several features scored, the player who placed the land tile decides the order in which the scoring is carried out, as this may affect which meeples are placed in free bathhouses (if applicable).

As a general consideration, the watchtowers scoring for meeples and the Darmstadt church bonus depend on meeples placed on neighboring tiles. It would seem reasonable that they would be resolved before any meeples are removed from the neighboring tiles in order to avoid any issues.

Normally, the usual scenarios allow you to handle the scoring process in a sequence, taking into account all these constraints. If robbers and messages are not involved in the scoring, all these contraints don't have a real impact on the scoring. They serve more as a guideline so you don't forget anything by error.

Castles with dependencies and bonuses scoring for meeples may require special treatment due to existing dependencies. But robbers and messages add a layer of complexity on top of the whole scoring process. Hence the decoupling between the evaluation of features and the actual scoring of the points on the scoreboard, so you have enough degrees of freedom to handle it all without being trapped in impossible situations.

If you follow a strict scoring sequence, especially with castles, you will end at impossible situations to score, like the ones in the following thread:
http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=3151.0

Check the example below:
* How do you score this scenario if you handle only one feature at a time?
* Which castle do you score first?
* How many points does each castle score?
Mix this with robbers and bathhouses...  >:D


Offline corinthiens13

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Re: Order of Play: Decoupling Points Evaluation and Scoring
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2021, 10:57:03 PM »
Ok, so, to summarize :
  • For simple scorings, without robbers: We follow the rule's scoring order, but it has no influence, so we might as well not follow the scoring order
  • For simple scoring with robbers, we follow the scoring order
  • For complex scoring, we do not follow the scoring order but let the player chose


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