Author Topic: Clarification of rules (halflings & double-sized tiles) - with HiG - 21 01 2021  (Read 11495 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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A monastery scores 1 point per occupied space no matter the tiles occupying them... Then you add the bonuses according to the actual tiles (vineyards, little buildings...).

A watchtower counts adjacent tiles with particular features (but we agreed to consider two halflings in a space as 1 tile). It would be similar to counting Little Buildings (or vineyards).

Would you count each Little Building twice when scoring these monasteries because they are placed on double-sized tiles?

(Note: We try to make square tiles to match the grid but double-sized tiles won't allow us to do that in some cases.)
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Offline corinthiens13

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A monastery scores 1 point per occupied space no matter the tiles occupying them... Then you add the bonuses according to the actual tiles (vineyards, little buildings...).

A watchtower counts adjacent tiles with particular features (but we agreed to consider two halflings in a space as 1 tile). It would be similar to counting Little Buildings (or vineyards).

Would you count each Little Building twice when scoring these monasteries because they are placed on double-sized tiles?

(Note: We try to make square tiles to match the grid but double-sized tiles won't allow us to do that in some cases.)

Of course we wouldn't count them twice. With option A, they'd be considered the same as the German castle: Standing on both tiles but counted once (meeple on a castle isn't counted twice for watchtower scoring for surrounding meeples, that'd be nonsense).

With option B, that'd make another complicated thing to explain  :yellow-meeple:
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 12:45:36 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Meepledrone

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My understanding is that Option A:
* The meeple on the German castle could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it
* The road segment on a Leipzig tile could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it
* A little building should be placed on one of the halves of a double-sized tile - you cannot consider it is on both halves.

The issue I have is this duality:
* We want to split the double-sized tile into two but this cannot happen. If so, the meeple would not be on either half so the dragon would not be able to eat it. You would end up with an Exp. 8 castle but this is not the case.
* Meeples placed clearly on one half would benefit or affect bonus scorings on that end but some other scorings would affect the whole tile...

I think this path also leads to conflicting situations... You would need a detailed list of dos and don'ts...

With option B, you have the following principles:
1) You address square spaces and then map to full tiles occupying/overlapping a given space when needed (even of they overflow the square space).
2) A double-sized tile is considered only once when mapped from different square spaces.
3) Two triangular tiles are considered one square tile for scoring purposes.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 01:12:26 PM by Meepledrone »

Offline NGC 54

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  • Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
10 points.

WikiCarpedia should describe all these cases on a dedicated page, and marking these examples with IconPadlock (see https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Icons and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Template:IconPadlock).

I think that this is the most neutral an correct variant for WICA. These interactions with other examples are a paradox. Options A, B, modified A, modified B or any other options, without an official clarification, are just semi-vague assumptions.
I translate WikiCarpedia in Romanian (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Main_Page/ro). I have 45,600+ edits at WICA. My WICA user page: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/User:NGC_54. Romanian translation of WICA: https://wikicarpedia.com/car/Special:LanguageStats?language=ro&x=D#sortable:3=desc.

Offline Vital Pluymers

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My understanding is that Option A:
* The meeple on the German castle could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it
* The road segment on a Leipzig tile could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it
* A little building should be placed on one of the halves of a double-sized tile - you cannot consider it is on both halves.

The issue I have is this duality:
* We want to split the double-sized tile into two but this cannot happen. If so, the meeple would not be on either half so the dragon would not be able to eat it. You would end up with an Exp. 8 castle but this is not the case.
* Meeples placed clearly on one half would benefit or affect bonus scorings on that end but some other scorings would affect the whole tile...

I think this path also leads to conflicting situations... You would need a detailed list of dos and don'ts...

With option B, you have the following principles:
1) You address square spaces and then map to full tiles occupying/overlapping a given space when needed (even of they overflow the square space).
2) A double-sized tile is considered only once when mapped from different square spaces.
3) Two triangular tiles are considered one square tile for scoring purposes.

Yes, option B could work like that.
Splitting double tiles into two is not easier and only leads to more confusion....

Offline corinthiens13

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My understanding is that Option A:
* The meeple on the German castle could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it
* The road segment on a Leipzig tile could be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it
* A little building should be placed on one of the halves of a double-sized tile - you cannot consider it is on both halves.

The issue I have is this duality:
* We want to split the double-sized tile into two but this cannot happen. If so, the meeple would not be on either half so the dragon would not be able to eat it. You would end up with an Exp. 8 castle but this is not the case.
* Meeples placed clearly on one half would benefit or affect bonus scorings on that end but some other scorings would affect the whole tile...

I think this path also leads to conflicting situations... You would need a detailed list of dos and don'ts...

With option B, you have the following principles:
1) You address square spaces and then map to full tiles occupying/overlapping a given space when needed (even of they overflow the square space).
2) A double-sized tile is considered only once when mapped from different square spaces.
3) Two triangular tiles are considered one square tile for scoring purposes.

Ok, and then... Green or black options?

Offline corinthiens13

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Second thought. About road scoring (core scoring only, I'm not talking about the 3 points bonus) :

A road starting and ending on the same german castle space. That space is counted once for the road scoring I guess? That'd be ok with both options A and B.

But a road starting on a space and ending on the second space of a single German Castle. Is the German castle tile:
  • Counted once? That'd validate option B, tiles are not virtually separated for scoring (except for scoring per adjacent tiles)
  • Counted twice? That'd validate option A, tiles are virtually separated for every scoring (except the castle itself)

I see no reason to apply a different mechanic for watchtower scoring and for roads scoring (if two road segments may be counted twice for road scoring, then they have to be counted twice for watchtower scorings too, or once and then once).

Maybe you're right with option B, and then a German Castle tile may be counted only once, even for a road network that includes both spaces of the German castle tile. Seems consistent too.
What do you think?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 02:42:04 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Meepledrone

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German castles are only considered once when connected to the same road several times. It does not matter which halves of the tile are involved.

You could even connect the three roads on one German castle tile to the same road network with the help of a roundabout.

Offline NGC 54

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How many points does the upper road scores?

Offline davide

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7 points

Offline corinthiens13

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7 points
I said I wasn't speaking of the bonus.

If it's 7 points, you ARE counting the double tile twice! Else it'd be 6 points  ???

Offline corinthiens13

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Here's my point:



If we treat those two roads the same way: The left one is 4+3 points, the right one is 5+3 points, the tile is counted once no matter the position of its two road segments (counted twice only for features scoring for adjacent tiles), then that validates option B.

If we treat those roads differently:The left one is 4+3 points, German castle tile counted once as the two road segments are on the same space; and the right one is 6+3 points, German castle tile counted twice as the road segments are on two different spaces, then we ARE separating the tile in two squares, and making a difference between features on the left square and features on the right square. That would validate option A, or A2 (see below).

Scoring the road with the first option and then using option A, and vice versa, wouldn't make any sense, as we'd apply two different mechanics (tile separated in two squares and counted twice + tile not separated and counted once) in the same step (3b Tally points and award points to the controlling player).

Here are options A and B again, but I realised maybe watchtowers may not apply the same mechanic than wagons and castles (that's A2), as watchtower are scoring mechanics, wagon and castle are action and triggering mechanics, ringmaster range could be apart too:



Based on WICA, we already know that:
  • When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
  • Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road


Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile (a little building'd be on both too), but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
  • The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points
  • Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
  • Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 6 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
  • Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
  • Black's watchtower is worth 5 points

Option A2: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile (a little building'd be on both too), but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only) for scoring and actions requiring a tile count, but ANY action affecting/applied on part of the tile is affecting/applied on the whole double tile:
  • The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points
  • Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
  • Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile, or blue option: he IS considering it (the 12 surrounding tiles)
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 6 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
  • Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
  • Black's watchtower is worth 5 points

Option B: We consider the whole double tile
  • The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 5+3 (right) points
  • Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
  • Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
  • Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
  • Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)

I think option A2 may be the correct one, keeping the mechanic of flying machine for wagons and castles too, but virtually separating the tile for every scorings, seems consistent. Option B imply we consider spaces for monastic buildings, but tiles for watchtower and road scorings...

Note that with option A and A2, the meeple on the German castle could not be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for meeples if both halves are adjacent to it, that's still only one meeple, the road segment on a Leipzig tile could not be counted twice by a watchtower scoring for roads if both halves are adjacent to it if we consider it to be a single road segment, and a little building could be considered as being applied to both halves (like the German Castle that's on both halves), but it cannot be counted twice.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 09:29:31 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline Vital Pluymers

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I think we should always consider the spaces around the feature.
•   For features like the monastery group, watchtower, big top we count the 8 spaces around the feature tile.
•   For the German castle tile, we count the ten spaces around the German castle tile.
•   For castles, we count the six spaces of the castle’s fief.
•   For meeples for which the surrounding space is important, like the wagon or ringmaster, we consider the number of spaces based on the tile it is placed on, hence 8, 10 or the castle’s fief.
•   The Leipzig tiles are an exception per definition. Although visually it looks like the road is on two spaces, it’s not. The road on the double Leipzig tiles is only on one space per definition.

Possibility 1: If a double tile is only for one half part of the surrounding spaces, the complete tile counts for that specific space it is extending:         





So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces, but some of them are extended. These extended spaces are only considered once for scoring.



Possibility 2: If a double tile is completely part of the surrounding spaces, it is overlapping two spaces and both of them are considered for scoring:



So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces. Both halves of the double tile are considered for scoring as they are both occupying a space.


That means for the examples from corinthiens 13:
1.   The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points (6 spaces according to the recent rule clarifications)
2.   Pink wagon may move anywhere on the German castle tile (according to Possibility 1)
3.   Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring (according to possibility 1)
4.   Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get points for the city on the German castle tile. (according to possibility 1)
5.   Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 10 surrounding spaces as he is on the German castle. The violet wagon may only move to 8 spaces surrounding the space he's on, but including the complete German castle tile that’s part of the 8 surrounding spaces. (according to possibility 1)
6.   Violet ringmaster is considering the 10 spaces around the German Castle tile, so including this circus tile (according to possibility 1)
7.   Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering all meeples on the 8 surrounding spaces and including the complete German castle tile because the tile is spartly overlapping one of the 8 surrounding spaces (according to possibility 1)
8.   Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the German castle tiles (according to possibility 2), and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles (per definition), and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
9.   Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (according to possibility 1)
10.   Black's watchtower is worth 5 points (according to possibility 2)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 03:28:51 AM by Vital Pluymers »

Offline corinthiens13

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I'm tired, sorry for the two replies I did just post and delete, I got confused  :o

I think we should always consider the spaces around the feature.
•   For features like the monastery group, watchtower, big top we count the 8 spaces around the feature tile.
•   For the German castle tile, we count the ten spaces around the German castle tile.
•   For castles, we count the six spaces of the castle’s fief.
•   For meeples for which the surrounding space is important, like the wagon or ringmaster, we consider the number of spaces based on the tile it is placed on, hence 8, 10 or the castle’s fief.
•   The Leipzig tiles are an exception per definition. Although visually it looks like the road is on two spaces, it’s not. The road on the double Leipzig tiles is only on one space per definition.

Possibility 1: If a double tile is only for one half part of the surrounding spaces, the complete tile counts for that specific space it is extending:         





So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces, but some of them are extended. These extended spaces are only considered once for scoring.



Possibility 2: If a double tile is completely part of the surrounding spaces, it is overlapping two spaces and both of them are considered for scoring:



So, there are still eight (or 10 or 4) surrounding spaces. Both halves of the double tile are considered for scoring as they are both occupying a space.


That means for the examples from corinthiens 13:
1.   The roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points (6 spaces according to the recent rule clarifications)
2.   Pink wagon may move anywhere on the German castle tile (according to Possibility 1)
3.   Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring (according to possibility 1)
4.   Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get points for the city on the German castle tile. (according to possibility 1)
5.   Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 10 surrounding spaces as he is on the German castle. The violet wagon may only move to 8 spaces surrounding the space he's on, but including the complete German castle tile that’s part of the 8 surrounding spaces. (according to possibility 1)
6.   Violet ringmaster is considering the 10 spaces around the German Castle tile, so including this circus tile (according to possibility 1)
7.   Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering all meeples on the 8 surrounding spaces and including the complete German castle tile because the tile is spartly overlapping one of the 8 surrounding spaces (according to possibility 1)
8.   Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the German castle tiles (according to possibility 2), and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles (per definition), and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
9.   Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (according to possibility 1)
10.   Black's watchtower is worth 5 points (according to possibility 2)

This is a possibility. My problem with this is that if the roads above are 4+3 (left) and 6+3 (right) points, this means we are making a difference between the road segments based on their position on the German Castle tile (left example, only one of the two segments are counted, since they are on the same space, and right example, both of the two segments are counted since they are on two different spaces).

Then, why wouldn't we use se same mechanism for watchtower and consider only features that are directly on the 8 surrounding tiles? (+meeple on the german castle that is on both spaces)?
I think it'd be too strange to consider each feature on their specific space for road scoring, and then not for watchtower scoring  ???

Offline Bumsakalaka

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Anyway, try to use tool called "Snipping Tool" in Windows 10.
You can make partial screenshot of screen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snipping_Tool
Check JCloisterZone Add-ons with fan expansions and also some Slovak sci/fi projects in English https://www.scifi.sk/en/


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