Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.
As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads... We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads... A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once? Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice. Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right? Any thoughts?
How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).
Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
Quote from: Meepledrone on February 07, 2021, 06:21:38 AMYep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below Quote from: Meepledrone on February 07, 2021, 06:21:38 AMAs soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads... We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads... A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once? Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice. Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right? Any thoughts?For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.Quote from: Carcassonne93 on February 07, 2021, 07:42:29 AMHow many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):Based on WICA, we already know that:When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both partsBlue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed roadThen, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the rightSame would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the rightWatchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tileOnce completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's onViolet ringmaster is not considering the circus tileYellow watchtower is worth 3 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagonBlue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in totalWatchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segmentsBlack's watchtower is worth 5 pointsOption B: We consider the whole double tilePink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tilesSame would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoringWatchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tileOnce completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon tooViolet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tileBlue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...What do you think?
Quote from: corinthiens13 on February 07, 2021, 10:15:07 AMQuote from: Meepledrone on February 07, 2021, 06:21:38 AMYep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below Quote from: Meepledrone on February 07, 2021, 06:21:38 AMAs soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads... We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads... A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once? Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice. Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right? Any thoughts?For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.Quote from: Carcassonne93 on February 07, 2021, 07:42:29 AMHow many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):Based on WICA, we already know that:When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both partsBlue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed roadThen, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the rightSame would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the rightWatchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tileOnce completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's onViolet ringmaster is not considering the circus tileYellow watchtower is worth 3 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagonBlue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in totalWatchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segmentsBlack's watchtower is worth 5 pointsOption B: We consider the whole double tilePink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tilesSame would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoringWatchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tileOnce completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon tooViolet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tileBlue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...What do you think?I don't like option A at all...I would choose option B with the green rules. That seems to be consequent with the rules of dragon movement and occupied spaces in general. You always consider spaces around the tile: normally 9, 12 for German castles and 6 for castles. If one of the spaces contains a double tile that extends that surrounding space to the outside, that part of the double tile is considered too.
"The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)""But for every other scoring""WICA: When scoring a monastery adjacent to one or more double-sized tiles, the monastery will consider the occupied square spaces (areas) adjacent to it. An double-sized tile adjacent to a monastery may then occupy 1 or 2 spaces. As a result a completed monastery will always score 9 points and an incomplete monastery will score 1 point for space occupied the monastery and 1 point per adjacent occupied space.Note: The same considerations should be applied when removing and scoring an abbot, and the scoring of all other monastic buildings: abbeys, shrines, German monasteries / Japanese Buildings / Dutch & Belgian monasteries with monks, Darmstadt churches."Until HiG will provide clarifications for all cases (probably never or after some years), the player should choose the variant that considers valid.
Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.
Here is my example based on Carcassonne93's question (finally)... so the feature with watchtowers are completed and ready for watchtower scoring.1) Red completes a 2-tile road, triggering a watchtower scoring.Red would score 2 points for the watchtower:- 1 point for the watchtower tile (it features a city segment)- 1 point for the adjacent Leipzig tile (it features a city segment)2) Blue completes a 2-tile city occupied by Blue and a 2-tile road occupied by Yellow. Each feature triggers one watchtower scoring.Blue would score 4 points for the watchtower on the completed road:- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one city segment)- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one city segment)- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Wainwrights quarter (it features two city segments)- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one city segment)Blue would also score 4 points for the completed 2-tile city.Yellow would score 3 points for the watchtower on the completed road:- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one road segment)- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one road segment)- 1 point for the Leipzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one road segment)Yellow would also score 2 points for the completed 2-tile road.
Quote from: Carcassonne93 on February 07, 2021, 11:25:24 AMOption A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.I agree. Adjacency, figure/token movement, ranges and trajectories have to follow the grid of square spaces... But once you have determine the affected spaces, you have to map it down to whole tiles:* One space may be occupied by one regular tile, 1 triangular tile, or two triangular tiles (considered as one tile)* One space may be occupied by one half of a double-sized tile. If so, you have to consider the double-sized tile as one tile. You have to consider it once, no matter the tile overlaps two adjacent squares involved in the same mechanic. Simple, huh?
Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement
Quote from: corinthiens13 on February 07, 2021, 10:15:07 AMYellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile10 points.
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