Author Topic: Clarification of rules (halflings & double-sized tiles) - with HiG - 21 01 2021  (Read 11499 times)

Offline Meepledrone

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Did you notice option B) was my favorite?  ;)
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But in the case of Wainwrights quarter and Bookbinders quarter, the "1 points for each tile with city" watchtower should receive 2 points.
I translate WikiCarpedia in Romanian (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Main_Page/ro). I have 47,200+ edits at WICA. My WICA user page: https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/User:NGC_54. Romanian translation of WICA: https://wikicarpedia.com/car/Special:LanguageStats?language=ro&x=D#sortable:3=desc.

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How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).

Offline corinthiens13

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Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten.  ;)

However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.

Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below  :yellow-meeple:

As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...

We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? 
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?

Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.

Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?

Any thoughts?

For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.

How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).

The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?

Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):



Based on WICA, we already know that:
  • When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
  • Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road


Then, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...


Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
  • Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
  • Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 6 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
  • Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
  • Black's watchtower is worth 5 points

Option B: We consider the whole double tile
  • Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
  • Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 10 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
  • Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
  • Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)

I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.
Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...

What do you think?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 11:51:04 AM by corinthiens13 »

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  • Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
10 points.

WikiCarpedia should describe all these cases on a dedicated page, and marking these examples with IconPadlock (see https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Icons and https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Template:IconPadlock).

Offline Vital Pluymers

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Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten.  ;)

However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.

Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below  :yellow-meeple:

As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...

We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? 
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?

Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.

Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?

Any thoughts?

For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.

How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).

The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?

Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):



Based on WICA, we already know that:
  • When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
  • Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road


Then, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...


Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
  • Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
  • Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 3 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
  • Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
  • Black's watchtower is worth 5 points

Option B: We consider the whole double tile
  • Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
  • Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
  • Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
  • Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)

I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.
Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...

What do you think?

I don't like option A at all...

I would choose option B with the green rules. That seems to be consequent with the rules of dragon movement and occupied spaces in general. You always consider spaces around the tile: normally 9, 12 for German castles and 6 for castles. If one of the spaces contains a double tile that extends that surrounding space to the outside, that part of the double tile is considered too.

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"The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)"

"But for every other scoring"

"WICA: When scoring a monastery adjacent to one or more double-sized tiles, the monastery will consider the occupied square spaces (areas) adjacent to it. An double-sized tile adjacent to a monastery may then occupy 1 or 2 spaces. As a result a completed monastery will always score 9 points and an incomplete monastery will score 1 point for space occupied the monastery and 1 point per adjacent occupied space.

Note: The same considerations should be applied when removing and scoring an abbot, and the scoring of all other monastic buildings: abbeys, shrines, German monasteries / Japanese Buildings / Dutch & Belgian monasteries with monks, Darmstadt churches."

Until HiG will provide clarifications for all cases (probably never or after some years), the player should choose the variant that considers valid.

Offline Meepledrone

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Ha ha ha! I was preparing an example based on Carcassonne93's image....

Regarding your example, my understanding is closer to your option B. The road segment scores as one tile always, otherwise, HiG would have drawn a separation line on the tile. They initially considered adding this splitting line for German castles, but in the end they removed it, so double-sized tiles should be considered as a whole, like all or nothing.

Therefore, if one of the square spaces occupied by a double-sized tile is involved in a mechanic, the whole tile is affected. This behavior was confirmed for the dragon, towers and fliers, so it should be a general rule for any tiles overlapping a given square space: a regular tile, one or two triangular tiles or a double-sized tile...

Regarding watchtower scoring, you would have to consider the watchtower tile (trivial case since there are not watchtowers in other tile geometries) and all those tiles overlapping the adjacent 8 square spaces. So,
* The minimum unit of evaluation for features or meeples is a square space occupied by one regular tile, one triangular tile or two triangular tiles treated as one square tile.
* Double-sized tiles have to be considered as one tile even if they occupy two spaces. The tile will have to be considered this way since there is no splitting line (all-or-nothing policy), and you should be scoring the same tile only once (as for any other feature... German cathedrals represent an exception confirming the rule ;)).

I know all this may sound complicated to explain, but it works consistently. If you use a wording based on tiles you would have edge cases:
* Two triangular tiles can be considered merged into a square tile
* Double-sized tiles are considered as one tile because you cannot split it with an imaginary line.

So following with your examples, I choose option B with a few changes:

Option B (with comments): We consider the whole double tile:
* Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles (even the city segment at the far end)
* Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
* Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, would get a point for the city on the german castle tile
* Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too (this is an easy adaptation, but if it is accepted for castles, this should be valid too).
* Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles) - (This is a loophole in the ringmaster rules since, we are scoring a city on a non-square tile--- Ooooops! With current rules the ringmaster shouldn't get bonus points due to the geometry of the tile)
* Yellow watchtower is worth 5 x 2 = 10 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile (each meeple is worth 2 points)
* Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (double-sized tiles are considered once, and each one gets 1 point for featuring at least one road segment).
* Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (each double sized-tile is considered once and you get one point for each tile featuring at least one city segment)
* Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (each double sized-tile is considered once and you get one point for each tile featuring at least one city segment)

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Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten.  ;)

However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.

Before tuning my wording option, we have to chose how to consider the situations below  :yellow-meeple:

As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...

We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? 
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?

Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.

Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?

Any thoughts?

For Leipzig's roads, I think we could say the road is considered to be only on the external square space, for any action and evaluation? That'd be easy to explain and understand, consistent for any expansion combination.

How many points does this watchtower scores? (Ignore the fact that the small city with the red meeple is incomplete).

The question is, with double tiles, how deep do we consider the whole double tile is affected by mechanics ?

Have a look at those situations (there's no farmer, the meeples have been laid down to make them easier to see):



Based on WICA, we already know that:
  • When placing the tower piece, range counting ends on a space of the double tile, so we may remove a meeple from both parts
  • Blue, having 1 on the dice, ends on a part of the double tile, so blue may place his meeple anywhere on the two parts of the double tile (except the completed road


Then, I think we should use a single mechanic for watchtowers, wagons, castles and ringmaster range. The question is how...


Option A: We consider the spaces, considering a German Castle is on both spaces of the tile, but other features are on a single space (even Leipzig's road, on the external space only)
  • Pink wagon may move on the german castle or the two road segments on the left space, but not on the city or road on the right
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of the castle or the two road segments on the left space would trigger the castle's scoring, but not the city or road on the right
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn't get any points for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, but violet wagon may only move on 9 tiles surrounding the space he's on
  • Violet ringmaster is not considering the circus tile
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 3 points, considering yellow meeple, violet phantom, and blue wagon, not the ringmaster or violet wagon
  • Blue watchtower is worth 2 points for the roads on the german castle tiles, and one for each road on Leipzig's tiles, and one for the watchtower tile, 5 in total
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is worth 4 points, without counting Leipzig's city segment, but counting both of black city segments
  • Black's watchtower is worth 5 points

Option B: We consider the whole double tile
  • Pink wagon may move anywhere on the german castle tiles
  • Same would happen with the castle with pink ringmaster, completition of anything on the castle tile triggers the castle's scoring
  • Watchtower under the pink ringmaster, if scored, wouldn get a point for the city on the german castle tile
  • Once completed, blue wagon may move on the 12 surrounding spaces as he is on the german castle, and violet wagon too
  • Violet ringmaster IS considering the circus tile (the 12 surrounding tiles)
  • Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
  • Blue watchtower is worth 1 point for the german castle tile containing roads, 4 in total (this is odd, I thought, green option: we could still consider both spaces for scoring and so it's 5 total points, but then the two following examples would be complicated)
  • Watchtower with pink meeple is 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the whole tile, with two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points, but this means a watchtower could get more than 9 points)
  • Black's watchtower is worth 4 points, considering Leipzig once (or it's considering the two spaces having a city segment, making it worth 5 points)

I prefer option A, it seems simplier to apply and understand, even if this means a meeple on a german castle is considered to be on two spaces and other meeples on a german castle tile are considered to be on a single space.
Option B brings more questions: Black or green rules? Both black and green options makes some odd situations, and the green ones are too complicated to understand and explain...

What do you think?

I don't like option A at all...

I would choose option B with the green rules. That seems to be consequent with the rules of dragon movement and occupied spaces in general. You always consider spaces around the tile: normally 9, 12 for German castles and 6 for castles. If one of the spaces contains a double tile that extends that surrounding space to the outside, that part of the double tile is considered too.

Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.

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"The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)"

"But for every other scoring"

"WICA: When scoring a monastery adjacent to one or more double-sized tiles, the monastery will consider the occupied square spaces (areas) adjacent to it. An double-sized tile adjacent to a monastery may then occupy 1 or 2 spaces. As a result a completed monastery will always score 9 points and an incomplete monastery will score 1 point for space occupied the monastery and 1 point per adjacent occupied space.

Note: The same considerations should be applied when removing and scoring an abbot, and the scoring of all other monastic buildings: abbeys, shrines, German monasteries / Japanese Buildings / Dutch & Belgian monasteries with monks, Darmstadt churches."

Until HiG will provide clarifications for all cases (probably never or after some years), the player should choose the variant that considers valid.

"But for every other scoring" should include also watchtowers.
The road segment from a Leipzig tile should be also considered once by inns, mage, German cathedrals, Wainwrights quarter.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 11:28:47 AM by Carcassonne93 »

Offline Meepledrone

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Here is my example based on Carcassonne93's question (finally)... so the feature with watchtowers are completed and ready for watchtower scoring.

1) Red completes a 2-tile road, triggering a watchtower scoring.

Red would score 2 points for the watchtower:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile (it features a city segment)
- 1 point for the adjacent Leipzig tile (it features a city segment)

2) Blue completes a 2-tile city occupied by Blue and a 2-tile road occupied by Yellow. Each feature triggers one watchtower scoring.

Blue would score 4 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Wainwrights quarter (it features two city segments)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one city segment)

Blue would also score 4 points for the completed 2-tile city.

Yellow would score 3 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one road segment)

Yellow would also score 2 points for the completed 2-tile road.

Offline Meepledrone

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Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.

I agree. Adjacency, figure/token movement, ranges and trajectories have to follow the grid of square spaces... But once you have determine the affected spaces, you have to map it down to whole tiles:
* One space may be occupied by one regular tile, 1 triangular tile, or two triangular tiles (considered as one tile)
* One space may be occupied by one half of a double-sized tile. If so, you have to consider the double-sized tile as one tile. You have to consider it once, no matter the tile overlaps two adjacent squares involved in the same mechanic.

Simple, huh?

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Here is my example based on Carcassonne93's question (finally)... so the feature with watchtowers are completed and ready for watchtower scoring.

1) Red completes a 2-tile road, triggering a watchtower scoring.

Red would score 2 points for the watchtower:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile (it features a city segment)
- 1 point for the adjacent Leipzig tile (it features a city segment)

2) Blue completes a 2-tile city occupied by Blue and a 2-tile road occupied by Yellow. Each feature triggers one watchtower scoring.

Blue would score 4 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one city segment)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Wainwrights quarter (it features two city segments)
- 1 point for the Lepzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one city segment)

Blue would also score 4 points for the completed 2-tile city.

Yellow would score 3 points for the watchtower on the completed road:
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Yellow (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the watchtower tile with the Blue meeple (it features one road segment)
- 1 point for the Leipzig tile with the Tanners quarter (it features one road segment)

Yellow would also score 2 points for the completed 2-tile road.

If it is used this rationale, the monasteries could still score 8 or 7 points when are completed.

"The rule does apply, therefore you still score only 1 point.
But for every other scoring, it is considered as 2 tiles (German monasteries, dragons etc.)"

Offline corinthiens13

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Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement.

I agree. Adjacency, figure/token movement, ranges and trajectories have to follow the grid of square spaces... But once you have determine the affected spaces, you have to map it down to whole tiles:
* One space may be occupied by one regular tile, 1 triangular tile, or two triangular tiles (considered as one tile)
* One space may be occupied by one half of a double-sized tile. If so, you have to consider the double-sized tile as one tile. You have to consider it once, no matter the tile overlaps two adjacent squares involved in the same mechanic.

Simple, huh?

My first understanding was for option B. But when writing the examples, I realized option A could be as correct as option B, but was also a lot simplier.

I think we have to think about simplification, just like what HiG is doing with the recent clarifications :yellow-meeple:

Option A keeps consistency with basic scoring rules.

And that's definitely true:
Quote
Option A is consistent with dragon movement, but not with dragon's eating.
Option B is consistent with dragon's eating, but not with dragon movement
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 12:25:06 PM by corinthiens13 »

Offline corinthiens13

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  • Yellow watchtower is worth 5 points, considering every meeple on the german castle tile
10 points.

Corrected this for options A and B  ;)


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Last post July 21, 2021, 01:59:05 AM
by Meepledrone
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Clarification of rules (Watchtowers and double tiles) - with KJW - 09 10 2022

Started by Meepledrone

17 Replies
1847 Views
Last post December 20, 2022, 11:17:21 AM
by Meepledrone
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Can a Dragon knock off a double sized Meeple?

Started by LilliB

5 Replies
1532 Views
Last post February 21, 2020, 12:57:04 PM
by Meepledrone