Clarification of rules (halflings & double-sized tiles) - with HiG - 21 01 2021

[NGC 54]

I think that WikiCarpedia should describe interactions with 1. double tiles and halflings and 2. flying machines, bathhouses, ringmaster bonuses, dragon, towers, watchtowers, plague, special monasteries, gold ingots, castles, German castles, acrobats, circus and barns on a page named "Special-sized tiles".

[Halfling]

Hurrah for common sense. Until another representative  gives different answers in 3 years time.

[Meepledrone]

Let's cross our fingers and sleeve our tiles! 

[NGC 54]

It could be added a notice on MediaWiki:Anonnotice (https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/MediaWiki:Anonnotice; https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sitenotice) that a lot of rules should be updated.

WikiCarpedia is in air, and the readers still read the not updated rules.

[Meepledrone]

I know...

Halflings and double-sized tiles can be reviewed. I'll redo some images.

But some changes have a huge impact and before applying them we have to be sure.
- Handling of scoring events during turn sequence
- Review of messages and robbers accordingly

If we could live with this for several years without knowing, we can wait a little longer. I'll keep it on hold until we have a coherent clarification.

[Bumsakalaka]

It will be good to write some Header over all pages that some review is required during new Hig Rules Clarrification which have to been prooven but some other HiG rules speaker, if for Johanes is Carcassonne a "Precambrian game"

[NGC 54]

I think that WikiCarpedia should describe interactions with 1. double tiles and halflings and 2. flying machines, bathhouses, ringmaster bonuses, dragon, towers, watchtowers, plague, special monasteries, gold ingots, castles, German castles, acrobats, circus and barns on a page named "Special-sized tiles".

https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany#Other_expansions: WikiCarpedia should describe all these cases with images.

I would appreciate an official clarification about wagons placed on a road from a German castle tile.

[Meepledrone]

Thanks for the suggestion!

In the meantime I have updated the following pages to include the clarifications in this topic. More to come soon.

* C2 Halflings:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings
* C2 German castles:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

All your comments are welcome.

[Bumsakalaka]

Well done @Meepledrone .
Maybe it will be good also to show shrine monastery combat for Halflimgs, that adjacent tiles mean adjacent space, or?

Odoslané z SM-A202F pomocou Tapatalku

[Meepledrone]

Added some comments with images to illustrate the clarifications. Check these posts:

* Tower range and flier range:
   http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg74236#msg74236

* Dragon movement, city and road scoring, and barn placment:
   http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=5021.msg74239#msg74239

[Vital Pluymers]

Thanks for the suggestion!

In the meantime I have updated the following pages to include the clarifications in this topic. More to come soon.

* C2 Halflings:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Halflings
* C2 German castles:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Castles_in_Germany
* Summary of Rule Sets & Changes:
   https://wikicarpedia.com/index.php/Summary_of_Rule_Sets_%26_Changes

All your comments are welcome.

Very nice job, Meepledrone!
I have to admit that these new rules regarding tiles versus spaces solve a lot of issues and are much easier to interpret and to apply.
So, it is definitely an improvement.
Now, if HiG would also reconsider the ringmaster rules, maybe I can start to like them a little bit after all 

A small remark about the German Castle rules:

Scoring of a completed castle
A castle can be completed and scored the same way as monasteries. As soon as the castle is surrounded by other Land tiles, you, the lord gets 12 points and take your meeple back to your stash.

At the end of the game all Land tiles surrounding an incomplete castle score one point. The Castle tile itself counts as 2 points.

That last line is incorrect as two halfling tiles on the same surrounding space would still only score 1 point.
Wouldn't it be more correct to also use spaces in these rules:

Scoring of a completed castle
A castle can be completed and scored the same way as monasteries. As soon as the spaces surrounding the castle are occupied by other Land tiles, you, the lord gets 12 points and take your meeple back to your stash.

At the end of the game all spaces occupied by land tiles surrounding an incomplete castle score one point. The Castle tile itself counts as 2 points.

I know you have explained it thoroughly in the Halfling rules, but I think it's better also to include the interaction with Halflings also in the German Castle rules.

[Meepledrone]

The German castle rules are okay if you consider that they only consider square tiles.

If you check all the rules even for the base game with Halflings in mind, you will find them all incorrect. Bear in mind that the rules always speak of square tiles (and the translation to occupied spaces happens when triangular and double-sized tiles get into the picture...) It would require to rewrite all the pages with this in mind.

Now we have one or two tiles occupying one square space and one tile occupying two square spaces... We have to think of mechanics considering square spaces and affecting all the tiles overlapping a given square space, even if the tiles overflows the square space. Rewording everything would make everything correct (for the time being) but messy for the non-initiated player in this semantic finesse. This 5% of the game may drive crazy the 99% of the players.

So far we are containing all these implications to the pages about with Halflings and German Castles. We should include a hint in Markets of Leipzig too or, as Carcassonne93 suggested, create a page dealing with special tiles and include all the clarifications there. So you would find the answer to scoring a German castle with Halflings in the Halflings page.

However, you may find a situations like this one that it is not even considered in the German castle rules, since minor expansions don't know each other... 

[corinthiens13]

The German castle rules are okay if you consider that they only consider square tiles.

If you check all the rules even for the base game with Halflings in mind, you will find them all incorrect. Bear in mind that the rules always speak of square tiles (and the translation to occupied spaces happens when triangular and double-sized tiles get into the picture...) It would require to rewrite all the pages with this in mind.

Now we have one or two tiles occupying one square space and one tile occupying two square spaces... We have to think of mechanics considering square spaces and affecting all the tiles overlapping a given square space, even if the tiles overflows the square space. Rewording everything would make everything correct (for the time being) but messy for the non-initiated player in this semantic finesse. This 5% of the game may drive crazy the 99% of the players.

So far we are containing all these implications to the pages about with Halflings and German Castles. We should include a hint in Markets of Leipzig too or, as Carcassonne93 suggested, create a page dealing with special tiles and include all the clarifications there. So you would find the answer to scoring a German castle with Halflings in the Halflings page.

However, you may find a situations like this one that it is not even considered in the German castle rules, since minor expansions don't know each other... 

Again, that is why I think it would be simplier to word halfling and double tiles clarifications like this:

A space is considered as occupied as soon as a single halflings is placed in it. A space occupied by two halflings is considered as a single tile for actions and evaluations (it takes one movement of the dragon to cross a space occupied by one or two halflings for example).
A double-tile is considered as two different tiles for actions and evaluations (it takes two movements of the dragon to cross it, or two points from the flying machine's dice for example), but the whole is affected as soon as part of the double-tile is affected by an action (the dragon eats the figures of the entire double-tile as soon as it reached one of its two spaces, a meeple landing on a part of a double tile with a flying machine may be placed anywhere on the double tile).

That way, all of the other rules would be correct for both initiated and non initiated players, without adding further clarifications

[Meepledrone]

Yep... Your proposal was my next stop. I hadn't forgotten. 

However, you may need to fine tune it a bit, since the road on a Leipzig tile is not considered two tiles for scoring but one tile. This is a "hidden" edge case, since there are no double-sized tiles with 2 city segments, just this odd case for roads.

As soon as I saw this clarification I also started to think how would a road segment on Leipzig tile interact with an adjacent watchtower scoring for roads...

We have one tile with one road segment scoring as one road segment but occupying two square spaces. The watchtower should consider adjacent spaces with roads...
A) Should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered for each adjacent space? 
B) Or should the road segment on the Leipzig tile be considered only once because the tile should be considered once?

Option A) seems odd. You would be scoring for the same tile twice.

Regarding option B), ir considers the road on the Leipzig tile would be considered only once. It would be similar to scoring a road with this road segment: it would be considered only once even if it spans across two squares, right?

Any thoughts?

[Bumsakalaka]

HiG answer will be: N/A - Prime directive Mini - Mini.

I guess to not complicate it. If for rules of length it's 1 points, than also for Watchtower it's one road segment.