Author Topic: Question about messages and negative points (Read 9733 times)

Vital Pluymers · « **Reply #45 on:** January 31, 2021, 03:05:43 PM »

Quote from: Meepledrone on January 31, 2021, 12:19:08 PM

Yes... This is our only way to deal with the issue. Whatever the response is regarding the abbot, we will have to extrapolate for the other expansions. And nailing down the scoring events in the turn sequence is the corner stone to see how to appraoch the whole issue.

So we are allowed to ask about:
- Interactions between expansions within a Big Box
- Interaction between major expansions
- Clarifications about the rules of any expansion (major or minor)

We cannot ask about interactions with minor expansions... unless they feel magnanimous and provide a hint.

Sorry guys, but I don't even know why you care about anything that guy is saying. His replies made clear that he is not even aware of the clarifications given in the past. Why should we care about his bla bla bla if he has not taken into account any interactions with the smaller expansions that were released by... guess what, the company he is representing and you are asking clarifications from...

And on top of that, we have to be careful and thankful, otherwise we might end up on a blacklist. We might be punished and we won't get any answers anymore...

Give me a break...

NGC 54 · « **Reply #46 on:** January 31, 2021, 03:45:31 PM »

What are Johannes's past contributions to Carcassonne game?

NGC 54 · « **Reply #47 on:** January 31, 2021, 03:49:31 PM »

Also, these recent clarifications are discussed by HiG or decided by one single person who probably does not know the rules very well?

Bumsakalaka · « **Reply #48 on:** February 01, 2021, 12:09:32 AM »

Well. This guy was set by HiG to resolve question about rules question on Official Discord Channel.
He answer question of Discord at least of 26. August 2020 - maybe earlier, but I register there at +- these days. So I can't proof it also before, (if discord show messages also before registration or not)

Meepledrone · « **Reply #49 on:** February 01, 2021, 02:19:19 AM »

Here you can find some info on key people at HiG...

https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/verlag/mitarbeiter.html

We have been talking to Johannes and Freddy on Discord.

NGC 54 · « **Reply #50 on:** February 01, 2021, 03:54:24 AM »

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1609.msg20881#msg20881

About acrobats: "Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid." From this sentence you can understand that acrobats are scored in step 2, even if this sentence is placed in "3. Scoring a feature" section.

"You trigger it in Step 2, but still get the points in step 3". --2021

Vital Pluymers · « **Reply #51 on:** February 01, 2021, 04:06:58 AM »

Quote from: Meepledrone on February 01, 2021, 02:19:19 AM

Here you can find some info on key people at HiG...

https://www.hans-im-glueck.de/en/verlag/mitarbeiter.html

We have been talking to Johannes and Freddy on Discord.

Point proven, I guess!
Carcassonne is not even mentioned in both people's biography or favorite games, so what do they know?
I am sure there is much more expertise combined in this forum than in the whole HiG team.

I don't say that all the clarifications that were provided lately are bad. Some of them would make the game easier to understand and to explain. But it is impossible to create overall rules if you are ignoring some of the game elements. If you release a game or an expansion, it is normal that you think about the interaction of all elements of the game. And you provide a decent service to the fans and customers that are paying for it.

Meepledrone · « **Reply #52 on:** February 01, 2021, 04:53:34 AM »

Quote from: Carcassonne93 on February 01, 2021, 03:54:24 AM

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=1609.msg20881#msg20881

About acrobats: "Instead of placing a meeple or any other figure during 2. Placing a meeple, you can score a completed pyramid." From this sentence you can understand that acrobats are scored in step 2, even if this sentence is placed in "3. Scoring a feature" section.

"You trigger it in Step 2, but still get the points in step 3". --2021

I'm okay with triggering in Phase 2 and scoring in Phase 3 but then Acrobats/Shepherds/Abbots should be removed when the action is triggered so no side effects like the dragon can alter something already triggered. This is my point.

This also raises an additional question: If the scoring of the acrobats takes place in Phase 3, do they receive the 3-point fairy bonus? We know the abbot does not get the fairy bonus because you are not scoring the feature (it is still incomplete). So far:
- We were assuming the fairy scoring bonus only affected features scored in Phase 3, and acrobats where scored in Phase 2, so no 3 points for the fairy... What happens now?

NGC 54 · « **Reply #53 on:** February 01, 2021, 05:29:32 AM »

Hills & Sheep
"When you place a tile to expand your shepherd's field, first resolve the action 2. Placing a meeple as normal, then resolve one of the following two actions:" It is described at "1. Placing a tile".

The Fruit-Bearing Trees
"If you have deployed a meeple, you may now perform either one of the following two actions."
"Take the top-most fruit token from the tree tile (if available). Then, immediately score points according to the fruit token's value. The fruit token is then placed in front of you."

NGC 54 · « **Reply #54 on:** February 01, 2021, 05:46:43 AM »

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/community/index.php?topic=592.msg10167;topicseen#msg10167

NGC 54 · « **Reply #55 on:** February 01, 2021, 05:57:58 AM »

I think that shepherd scoring still occurs in 2C. Johannes only said that the shepherd scoring is considered if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne. So, if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne, you consider all points received in 1C-3C.

Bumsakalaka · « **Reply #56 on:** February 01, 2021, 06:06:12 AM »

Quote from: Carcassonne93 on February 01, 2021, 05:57:58 AM

I think that shepherd scoring still occurs in 2C. Johannes only said that the shepherd scoring is considered if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne. So, if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne, you consider all points received in 1C-3C.

I'll be Devil's Advocate hare. But I think that intention of Message is to give bonus not for players which scores but player which finished feature.
Their interpretation is that scoring message is defined in step 3. Scoring a Feature - so it's only for scoring here.
Simplifying of all steps only to 4 divisions are mayme not so usefull for us (players), but usefull for them (HiG)

corinthiens13 · « **Reply #57 on:** February 01, 2021, 07:21:16 AM »

Quote from: Bumsakalaka on February 01, 2021, 06:06:12 AM

Quote from: Carcassonne93 on February 01, 2021, 05:57:58 AM
I think that shepherd scoring still occurs in 2C. Johannes only said that the shepherd scoring is considered if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne. So, if you want to send a meeple in Carcassonne, you consider all points received in 1C-3C.
I'll be Devil's Advocate hare. But I think that intention of Message is to give bonus not for players which scores but player which finished feature.
Their interpretation is that scoring message is defined in step 3. Scoring a Feature - so it's only for scoring here.
Simplifying of all steps only to 4 divisions are mayme not so usefull for us (players), but usefull for them (HiG)

Message is only for active player, so of course it is for player who completes a feature, as non active players can not complete a feature, that's not new

NGC 54 · « **Reply #58 on:** February 01, 2021, 06:46:43 PM »

"This is a combination of expansion 3 and a mini, therefore not answered. Again a special combination that we can't consider."
I do not understand. This answer is longer than a "Yes" or "No".

My understanding:
Messages considers only 1A-3C or only 3B-3C; the message(s) is/are triggered at the end of step 3 ("You will get messages in each Step 3") (in all cases, only positive points, the last movement of the scoring meeple or messenger).
Robbers consider 1A-4A and only positive points.
Sending a meeple in Carcassonne considers only 3B-3C or only 1C-3C (per "you cannot receive any points after placing
a tile, no matter if it is a feature being scored o any bonus (shepherd, 3-point for the fairy, ringmaster)").

(Robbers are bundled in 1A-4A)
(Prisoner ransom can happen anytime)
1A: Fairy point
1B: WoF points, Peasant Revolt points
1C. Wind rose points
2B-1: Removal of acrobats or abbots (no points; confuse, per "But   artists (acrobats) are scored in Step 2?"
"You trigger it in Step 2, but still get the points in step 3"
"About removing and   scoring the abbot: "This scoring occurs immediately during the 2. Placing a meeple
phase when the   abbot is removed. This effectively protects the abbot from the dragon and produces a scoring round for Messages. Afterwards, the normal scoring phase occurs. (3/2015)")
2C. Fruit points, shepherd points (but it is unsure if they are placed here or in 3B; printed rules seem to say 2C, but here it is mentioned that Carcassonne considers all points from step 3, that Carcassonne also considers shepherd points and "in order to send a meeple to Carcassonne you cannot receive any points after placing a tile"; also "This   is a combination   of expansion 3 and a mini, therefore not answered. Again a special combination that we can't consider.")
3B:
Bonus scoring (pre): Watchtower, Tollhouse
Feature scoring: City, Road, Monastery, Castle, etc.
Bonus scoring (post): Markets of Leipzig, Fairy 3 points, Ringmaster points, Teacher, Darmstadt Church bonus
Abbot points (if removed in 2B-1; confuse), Acrobat points (if removed in 2B-1; confuse)
3C: Circus scoring
After 3C; before 4A: Messages

I want to find out Klaus-Jürgen Wrede's (the creator of Base Game and more), kettlefish's (who presented on CarcassonneCentral a lot of official clarifications from Georg Wild) and Georg Wild's (whose previous official clarifications on this topic are now contradicted by Johannes) opinions about these clarifications (although probably is "nearly impossible").

Bumsakalaka · « **Reply #59 on:** February 02, 2021, 01:47:42 AM »

Quote from: Carcassonne93 on February 01, 2021, 06:46:43 PM

I want to find out Klaus-Jürgen Wrede's (the creator of Base Game and more), kettlefish's (who presented on CarcassonneCentral a lot of official clarifications from Georg Wild) and Georg Wild's (whose previous official clarifications on this topic are now contradicted by Johannes) opinions about these clarifications (although probably is "nearly impossible").

Of course imposible. Georg is not working for HiG anymore, so we have to work with that what we have.
HiG made a strong line between C1 rules and C2 rules. For me, it's about players, how they'll play game. Official rules, for both C1/C2 in BigBox are clear.

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